Author Topic: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [FINALLY, SOLVED!]  (Read 49206 times)

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Offline Glastronjohn18

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [SOLVED!]
« Reply #100 on: June 18, 2016, 03:28:13 PM »
Glad to hear " Problem Solved".  Now go out and enjoy it!
John
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Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [SOLVED?]
« Reply #101 on: June 18, 2016, 06:39:37 PM »
I took the boat out on the lake this afternoon.  I found that with drive in gear, the throttle is fine if you push it fast and nearly full, but if you quickly push it halfway, there is a slight hesitation before it takes off.  Luckily it doesn't totally kill any more.

The carb shop guy told me that the flapper in the throttle body assembly had a slight resistance to it when it was partially open.  His mentioning it implied to me that isn't normal.  He said he didn't think it would matter. 
I wonder if that resistance is where the hesitation is coming from?  I was surprised when the carb shop guy told me about that resistance.  I figured they'd be able to get it all lubed up and perfect.  And, it not, I figured they'd replace parts until it was perfect. 
They say they warranty their work for 90 days. 
But, I'm not really sure this remaining hesitation is in the carb? 
If it is, can they replace the flapper in the throttle body assembly and make it work perfect? 

Given the current symptoms and the info the Carb Shop guy told me, does this hesitation seem like a carb problem to engine experts on for forum?

Am I expecting too much?  Can't 1970s engine technology be fixed so it runs smoothly?

Eric
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 03:26:53 PM by Neutron68 »
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Jason

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [SOLVED?]
« Reply #102 on: June 20, 2016, 06:58:05 AM »
I took the boat out on the lake this afternoon.  I found that with drive in gear, the throttle is fine if you push it fast and nearly full, but if you quickly push it halfway, there is a slight hesitation before it takes off.  Luckily it doesn't totally kill any more.

The carb shop guy told me that the flapper in the throttle body assembly had a slight resistance to it when it was partially open.  His mentioning it implied to me that isn't normal.  He said he didn't think it would matter. 
I wonder if that resistance is where the hesitation is coming from?  I was surprised when the carb shop guy told me about that resistance.  I figured they'd be able to get it all lubed up and perfect.  And, it not, I figured they'd replace parts until it was perfect. 
They say they warranty their work for 90 days. 
But, I'm not really sure this remaining hesitation is in the carb? 
If it is, can they replace the flapper in the throttle body assembly and make it work perfect? 

Given the current symptoms and the info the Carb Shop guy told me, does this hesitation seem like a carb problem to engine experts on for forum?

Am I expecting too much?  Can't 1970s engine technology be fixed so it runs smoothly?

Eric

The fix to this problem is to just give it full throttle all the time!

My guess is if he mentioned the throttle plate and didn't fix it was because he really didn't think it would be a problem. You can always call him and mention the issue and see what he thinks. Check and make sure the choke is fully open. That could need some adjustment after a rebuild. Same story for your idle mixture screws.
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [SOLVED?]
« Reply #103 on: June 20, 2016, 08:08:16 AM »
        Nearly any engine from any timeframe can be tuned to run well for the particular application.   Keep in mind that tuning does not simply involve one device, everything has to work in harmony.  You have upgraded to an electronic ignition and had the carburetor rebuilt, but what about advance mechanism in the distributor? Is vacuum advance enabled in your particular set up?   Wear and play in the valve train?  You are making progress, each step along the way has yielded improvements.  Not exactly certain the latest issue is?  If you go to WOT everything is OK, but if you only go to half throttle there is a problem?  or maybe it was half throttle to full that had hesitation?   Also confusing is hesitation in the throttle travel?  There should be no mechanical binding of the throttle shafts.   When there is, its almost always been the butterflie are upside down.

 Anytime an engine is called upon to increase output under load two main systems must work together, fuel enrichment and spark advance.  Assume the carb is mostly OK, I would obtain a nice timing light and look at how well the timing advances.  What timing at idle, what is the total, and when is it "all in" 
  Honestly, its running far better and not dying when you pour the coals to it, so personally I'd run it for  awhile, enjoy the quirkiness, then create a list of things you would like to change.   Plenty of time over the cold winter to tinker.
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [SOLVED?]
« Reply #104 on: June 20, 2016, 10:01:21 AM »
On Sunday afternoon, I needed to decide if I would bring the carb back to the Carb Shop or not. 
I decided I would remove it and take it back. 
They have a 90 day warranty on their work...so I've got 90 days to be sure the carb is working as new or have it fully rebuilt to work as new.

My wife is going to drive it over for me, while I'm at my full time job.  I wrote them a note to go along with the carb:
Quote
Dear Carburetor Shop,

I got the carb reconnected to the Mercruiser 140 engine and it ran much better.  It looked pretty nice too! 

The acceleration pump is clearly working now!  I initially tested the engine with the drive in neutral, and the spark arrestor can off, so there was no load on the engine and no impedance to incoming air.  I was able to quickly push the throttle from idle to full without the engine stalling or hesitating.  I tweaked the idle adjustment screws for smoothest idle at around 800 RPM.  The Mercruiser service manual says to tweak the idle with the drive engaged so there is a load on the engine.  I ended up with the screws unscrewed about ½ to ¾ revolution. 

I tried the boat out on the lake Saturday afternoon.  I found that the throttle-up is fine if you push it fast to full throttle, but if you quickly push it to about half throttle, there is a lull/hesitation before it finally accelerates.  This is the type of throttle maneuver is common when docking the boat - putting it into reverse quickly to slow or stop the boat.  If it hesitates, you might hit the dock or rocks you are trying to avoid.

When I picked up the carb on Friday, I was told that the flapper in the throttle body assembly had a mechanical resistance to it, when it was partially open.  The mentioning of this detail implied to me that isn't new/normal operation.  The mechanic said he didn't think it would matter.  Now, I'm wondering if that mechanical resistance is where the ½ throttle hesitation is coming from? 

I'm trying to diagnose and fix all the engine problems and having the flapper in the throttle body assembly not working as new, throws up a question mark in the troubleshooting process.  I really want all aspects of this carb to behave like a new carb.  I'd like to eliminate all abnormal behavior in this carb.  If you need to clean or replace the throttle body assembly to get it back to like-new operation, please do so.  I really want to trust all aspects of the carb, so I can eliminate it as the cause of problems.

On the spark advance:
It is a centrifugal advance control.  There are no vacuum hoses to it or bellows on it. 
(Is a vacuum advance better?  Can I switch?)
A year ago Rich suggested testing it for sticking and I tried his test - passed his criteria.
Is there another test I can do to prove it good or bad?
Quote
Quote from: Rich_V174SS on July 07, 2015, 08:01:39 PM
Take the distributor cap off, take hold of the rotor and it should easily turn about a quarter inch in one direction and spring back when released. If it does not then it could be sticking. If you pull the rotor off the top of the shaft you can put some penetrating oil down the center of the shaft, let it soak in for a while then try the rotation test again.
Quote
Quote from Eric
I did this yesterday.  The shaft behaved as you described.  It rotated about 1/4 inch and snapped back.  I sprayed penetrating oil in there anyway.
I ran it again several hours later and it still had the throttle-up-die syndrome.

On checking timing:
I have not done this yet, on this 140 engine. 
I have been told that the engine would not run smoothly at any speed if the timing were off a lot.  True?
It does not run rough, at any speed.

Eric




« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 04:54:23 PM by Neutron68 »
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Jason

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [SOLVED?]
« Reply #105 on: June 21, 2016, 06:52:30 AM »
Timing could still be off and causing your hesitation. It can actually idle better with the timing off. So I would check it once you get the carb back on.
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [SOLVED?]
« Reply #106 on: June 21, 2016, 07:34:04 AM »
     I will echo Jason's advice, timing needs to be checked.  Just  a guess but prob 4-6 degrees advanced at 750 rpm idle, then 28-30 total, all in my 2300-2500 rpm.  Most engines idle better with the timing retarded, but will hesitate under load because of it.  Going to half throttle instead of full throttle can do several different things actually.  Your likely are into the transition ports longer(progression circuit), and secondly, your accelerator pump travel may not be great enough at half throttle position to have "squirted" enough fuel.   Somewhat a trade off, but the linkages are generally adjustable as are springs and discharge nozzles.  The majority of race carbs do not have progression circuits, just an idle and a main since those engines don't spend any time at mid rpm cruising.  Going straight into full throttle masks progression circuit issues.   Now that the carb shop has it back, I'm going to bet they take a bit more time with it.   
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [SOLVED?]
« Reply #107 on: June 21, 2016, 06:24:24 PM »
UNBELIEVABLE! 
Absolutely everyone who has touched this carb has made an error! 
Add The Carburetor Shop to the list, now!

I just got off the phone with The Carburetor Shop.  They actually found an obvious problem. 
They had used "some other brand" of accelerator pump in my carb and it had swollen up with gas! 
He said it had swelled to fill the accelerator pump chamber and wasn't moving up and down easily.

He said my reported symptoms lined up with the swollen accelerator pump. 
Saturday morning: it worked great after I put the carb back on, applied gasoline to the system and shot my video.
Saturday afternoon: it didn't work great anymore, after the plunger soaked up gas and swelled up!

I hope he used a reputable brand of accelerator pump plunger this time!
I'll try it again this coming weekend!

I'll also try and get a timing light by Saturday so I can make sure timing is ok.

Eric
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 06:27:57 PM by Neutron68 »
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Jason

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [SOLVED, AGAIN?]
« Reply #108 on: June 22, 2016, 11:59:24 AM »
At least he owned up to the mistake. Glad you got it taken care of. Hopefully this is the end of it.
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [SOLVED, AGAIN?]
« Reply #109 on: June 22, 2016, 09:47:33 PM »
At least he owned up to the mistake. Glad you got it taken care of. Hopefully this is the end of it.
I definitely appreciate his candor.  I really hope this is the end of carb problems.
i just wanna zoom zoom. :)
In Saturday tests, if I pushed full throttle, the Glastron was up on plane in less than 5 seconds.
I've got nothing to compare this to, but it was pretty impressive to me.

Eric
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 09:50:49 PM by Neutron68 »
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [SOLVED, AGAIN?]
« Reply #110 on: June 25, 2016, 12:49:33 AM »
I'm almost afraid to post this update for fear it will jinx it!

My wife got the redone carb from the Carb Shop on Thursday...accelerator pump replaced under the Carb Shop's 90 day warranty.

I took Friday afternoon off from work, drove up to the cabin, bolted the carb back on the engine just before supper Friday night - works great again...zoom, zoom!  We'll see how long it keeps zooming...

Eric
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [FINALLY, SOLVED!]
« Reply #111 on: June 25, 2016, 11:41:23 PM »
The carb seems to have a lasting fix!
I re-installed the carb on Friday night around 6pm.
I lake tested the boat around 6pm on Saturday night - plenty of time for another faulty accelerator pump to manifest itself.

Damn, it accelerates- up on plane in 3-4 seconds.  This is pretty impressive, to me.
I suspect I'm getting at least 100 or the 140 rated horsepower of this engine?

Sorry for the poor camera work. 
I was holding the phone with my left hand and operating the boat with my right hand. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQoI6-w9T9I
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold
« Reply #112 on: June 28, 2016, 09:25:00 AM »
When you set the idle screws, hook up a vacuum gauge to the manifold. It makes really was o get the carb set correctly. The plug is located towards the rear of the manifold.
This connection on the side of the carb?
I checked this past weekend.  There is no suction/vacuum from that little hose connection on the side of the carb.  I measured it with a new vacuum gauge.  I also put my finger over the hole, and could not feel any suction.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 09:50:49 AM by Neutron68 »
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [FINALLY, SOLVED!]
« Reply #113 on: June 28, 2016, 02:06:55 PM »
    I believe Brandon is referring to manifold vacuum, you set idle mixture for highest vacuum reading.   Personally I go a bit richer than stoich, but that's just me.  In many cases the port on a carb is ported vacuum to drive advance mech on the distributor.  Not the same as manifold vac.    In its absence, I would open 1/2 turn from lightly seated stop, and adjust both screws equally until a nice smooth idle occurs, then maybe a 1/4 more.   Now get out there and enjoy!
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [FINALLY, SOLVED!]
« Reply #114 on: June 29, 2016, 11:53:04 AM »
    I believe Brandon is referring to manifold vacuum, you set idle mixture for highest vacuum reading.   Personally I go a bit richer than stoich, but that's just me.  In many cases the port on a carb is ported vacuum to drive advance mech on the distributor.  Not the same as manifold vac.    In its absence, I would open 1/2 turn from lightly seated stop, and adjust both screws equally until a nice smooth idle occurs, then maybe a 1/4 more.   Now get out there and enjoy!
I've currently got it the idle adjust screws set as you just suggested - both screws set at 3/4 turn out from lightly-seated, and it's idling ok.  I couldn't hear/feel any performance difference between 1/2 turn and 3/4 turn.
For future reference, maybe someone can post a photo showing where the "manifold vacuum" port is.

At this point, I think I'm finally in good shape to enjoy the July 4th week.  :)

Eric
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Rosscoe

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Re: Mercruiser 140 difficult to start when cold [FINALLY, SOLVED!]
« Reply #115 on: June 29, 2016, 08:35:06 PM »
Good  to hear Eric. The Carb Shop is generally very good. I've had several quadrajets rebuilt there.
Ross
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