Post by: pyro225 on August 13, 2017, 04:24:44 PM
Just doing research and people are saying the stock strong is on 1/2" but what ? Is it marine ply? And the transom what size and wood is this stock and the floor again?
Also what is glassed stock as the back of my transom is mainly painted not glassed? How much glass would you think I'd realistically use on changing these three?
Cheers!
Post by: Hyperacme on August 14, 2017, 09:08:55 AM
http://www.classicglastron.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11469&start=20 (http://www.classicglastron.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11469&start=20)
Some one laid a new floor over top of old rotted floor ...
I only did the floor under my splash well and transom, cut and grinded over the winter, had plenty of time so used a "Oscillating Multi-Tool" ... with metal cutting bits which lasted longer then wood cutting bits.
https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/oscillating-tools/oscillating-multi-tool-62279.html (https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/oscillating-tools/oscillating-multi-tool-62279.html)
I cut out from edge of floor about 1 inch, I could see what I was cutting better then, on the hull to floor joint.
On "picture1" you can see the right side has floor cut out about 1 inch back from hull and on left side floor has been cut out from the edge of hull that supports it, and old resin ground out.
"picture2" shows every thing cut and ground, ready to lay new floor piece in, which sits on a ledge formed by chine / stakes on bottom of hull.
Others have used grinders to cut floor, but be careful as not to cut through hull.
You could use grinder to cut in a small amount then use Oscillating Multi-Tool to make finale cut.
Some G/C's have stringer wrapped better then others, guess it depends on the day / week / year it was built, or even the worker that built it. Cut floors out and see what you got under them ...
Post by: Hyperacme on August 14, 2017, 09:22:25 AM
But for transom went with two 3/4 inch pieces of plywood sandwiched with biaxle, then routered out section that is between splash well and hull. There is only room for the original 1 inch transom wood between splash well and hull.
Original transom was two 1/2 pieces of plywood screwed together then tabbed and glassed over.
Your could be different then mine.
Post by: Hyperacme on August 14, 2017, 09:33:28 AM
Which wood and resin to use ...
Post by: pyro225 on August 14, 2017, 03:32:50 PM
I have a multi tool so you think if i hit the hull id know about it with this? I also have a reciprocating saw you may call it an electric chainsaw? That maybe good or a jigsaw?
Post by: pyro225 on August 14, 2017, 05:43:29 PM
Post by: dorelse on August 14, 2017, 05:58:34 PM
They're excellent.
Post by: pyro225 on August 16, 2017, 01:20:38 AM
Post by: Rosscoe on August 16, 2017, 06:44:13 AM
Floor is usually 1/2"
Post by: Hyperacme on August 16, 2017, 07:25:06 AM
I used exterior grade plywood on my transom, but thicker and with the biaxial sandwiched between ... Should be strong enough to hold a 150 HP motor.
Also mixed some polyester resin and styrene, 50/50 and sealed all thru hull / transom holes. The mix is as thin as water and soaks into wood.
Tabbing is strips of fiberglass, layed down around edge of transom / floor (tabbing & tabbing2)
AAAAaaa....
The wood and resin question ....
Polyester : our boat were made with it.
Vinylester : newer, stronger version of polyester.
Epoxy : strongest , but you can't put poly or vinyl resin over top of it won't stick, not a big deal though.
Exterior grade : cheapest, if covered and sealed should last 30 to 40 years.
Marine ply : low voids, better glue, all holes should be sealed though, might have to be ordered from your local building supplier.
Composite : never rot, light, easy to cut, can be expensive.
Watch video Doran posted, read some the rebuild threads on here and CGOA and talk with your local glass supplier.
Shawn & Joe have some rebuild threads on this site.
Search ... fireman24mn & thedeuceman ... postings
Post by: pyro225 on August 16, 2017, 10:33:21 AM
Bolts for the output I was going to drill these holes bigger then epoxy in the holes so plastic pipe thats sealed then run the bolts through here.
Im thinking if I do that and have a good cover I should be pretty darn waterproof and a wooden transom should be fine...
Will epoxy stick to the existing stuff is it only the other stuff doesn't stick to epoxy?
I was going to get archly 12mm x2 but my building merchant says mahogany ply is 1/3 less money not sure if birch is any better?
Cheers
Post by: pyro225 on August 16, 2017, 10:38:15 AM
Anyway I have cut back all the delaminated stuff and plan to put more cross members in and and then glass it back...
I have also puttee out all the foam I can get as it was drenched then is a couple in the rear well I can't reach and may leave as I don't want to cut that too...
Whats your views on the stringer - I can't see anything in the bottom still and glass looks solid guessing she's sat in there?
Cheers
Post by: pyro225 on August 17, 2017, 03:59:54 PM
Post by: Oldfishguy on August 17, 2017, 05:26:53 PM
I think I'd be removing all the wood aft of the front kickboard at this point. You only want to to this once so clean it out back to the transom and then you will see what you have back there. Most of the floors fail aft of the seats. Keep your seat boxes and mark where they are removed. Grab that oscillating tool and peel up that wood on the edges so you have a few inches on each side to lay down he new wood in.
Let me see if I can resurrect an old thread of my rebuild and put some pictures in for you.
Don't expect much in he way of responses for a few days as many in the group are at our annual gathering; I'm stuck working so I'll try to formulate a few things for you when I can.
Best of luck.
David
Post by: pyro225 on August 18, 2017, 02:47:52 AM
So your saying get the saw under those inch wide bits take it back to glass to lay it on? And then cut up to the fromt? I can't do that.
My main concern is opinions on the stringer now is it in that glass of so I'd imagine it wouldn't need doing?
I now have a new problem /question if water gets either side of the main channel /bilge will it end up in the splash well and be pumped out?
Basically I had a sheet over it and we had an unexpected storm and it blew a corner up whilst I know all rain in the center would go to the splash well I want to Mack sure that if any got either side of those long planks that I'm not going to seal it in with a new floor as that would be very stupid.
What do you think? Cheers!
Post by: Oldfishguy on August 18, 2017, 07:52:02 AM
Your floor stringers are a little different than mine; I have a single stringer on my older machine. But yes, you're going to want to dry everything out before you start with the resin. If you don't want to go forward removing the floor that is understandable, just add a few cross supports under the floor where you do the splices. And I would use an oscillating tool to remove anything close to the hull. With this tool you will have better control as you definately don't want to cut through the hull.
https://www.menards.com/main/tools-hardware/power-tools-accessories/oscillating-tools-accessories/tool-shop-reg-2-amp-corded-oscillating-multi-tool-kit-7-piece/p-1455839708341-c-12869.htm?tid=4402158970457542345&ipos=2 (https://www.menards.com/main/tools-hardware/power-tools-accessories/oscillating-tools-accessories/tool-shop-reg-2-amp-corded-oscillating-multi-tool-kit-7-piece/p-1455839708341-c-12869.htm?tid=4402158970457542345&ipos=2)
I would definitely pull the floor out all the way back to the transom though; you need to see what you have under there as far as how solid are the stringers. It is a tough place to work but by doing this you will get a better look at how solid your transom is too. One only wants to do this once.
Here is an old rebuild thread I just repaired the links to old pictures and a video. I hope this helps, best of luck.
David
http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=5298.0 (http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=5298.0)
Post by: pyro225 on August 18, 2017, 09:25:03 AM
so would you say that look like I may have two stringers? if so they are in bad shape I think if I can dry out and glass they should be good... I can't get to the front though so guessing if they are ok all the way back I will have to hope for the best up there?
I used one of those tools I used an aggressive blade and I have cut a few mm into the hull at some points guess a bit of resin and glass will be for to pat the up (didn't go through as far as I can tell!)
As far as cutting back to the transom - I have foam boxes either side are they ok to stay? if so I will just cut right up to them.
As there is a bit of depth there I will use my reciprocating saw and switch to the multi tool at the end!
Cheers
Dan
Post by: pyro225 on August 31, 2017, 08:18:10 AM
I have ended up going with polyester resin as for one reason or another for the lot. Ordered 20litres. I was going to order the styrene so I Gould mix 50/50 as you say for soaking into the ply however I notice a warning saying only mix 10% styrene as and more could alter the outcome of the resin... also the resin has 35% styrene in anyway...
My question is would you still go 50% or would you just go with 10% ?
Cheers
Post by: Hyperacme on August 31, 2017, 09:56:28 AM
They know far more about there product then I do.
That might have been why I had a hard time getting it to kick / harden.
Your boat construction is different then the USA version.
I would note how your was put together and rebuild the same way.
Take notes, pictures and drawings as you cut old wood and glass out.
Post by: pyro225 on August 31, 2017, 04:12:12 PM
Post by: Hyperacme on September 01, 2017, 09:07:01 AM
Post by: fireman24mn on September 01, 2017, 09:35:31 AM
Factory process is; spray clear gel into mold, spray flake/gel in mold, spray base color in mold, spray fiberglass/ resin mix in mold, hand layup fiberglass sheets in mold, install stringers & glass, install floor, install carpet, seats, etc.
Think of the bilge. From the factory I don't think any of them had gel on them.
If you are redoing a boat I would add a layer of gel to the floor and bilge area. Water can slowly seep through fiberglass and resin however it won't seep through gel.
Post by: Hyperacme on September 01, 2017, 09:52:47 AM
Guess I'm not sure if it was paint or some form of gel ?
Post by: pyro225 on September 02, 2017, 11:30:20 AM
Post by: Hyperacme on September 02, 2017, 01:11:32 PM
Can't see any reason you couldn't do it all in one step, but you only have 10 to 15 mins. until resin kicks, so you would need to hurry and hope you have every thing set up right and that everything go's smooth/well.
Even with four people working on mine ... the 10 to 15 min. time frame go's very quick, and if it kicks before your done it would be a mess !
Post by: pyro225 on September 02, 2017, 05:28:24 PM
How thick biaxial are you putting in just one 600 sheet?
Post by: Hyperacme on September 02, 2017, 07:49:13 PM
I did a bunch of reading on fiberglass / resins / wood ... So when I went to Express Composites I knew ( a little ... LOL) about what he was telling me.
I told him what I had and what I was going to do, he told me what to get and how much ...
I don't remember exact details of what it was ... 1089 or something like that ...
Joe or Shawn ... or others might know what it was or what you need.
Two people is fine ...
Cut and fit fiberglass cloth, then one guy mixing resin and one guy glassing.
Post by: pyro225 on September 03, 2017, 01:42:17 AM
Here's my transom plan...
Split hull and cut out (if it needs cutting) old transom.
Use as a template on 12mm birch ply and cut out 2x these templates.
Mix up resin and then paint it on both pieces (one side of both) and roll on a sheet of the biaxial before before clamping together two wet sides with biaxial together.
When dry remove clamps and mix up as thin a mix recommended and pour it all over one side of my sandwich roll on a sheet of glass... let it dry... do the same with the other side...
When sandwich is done put a loads of resin (thick mix) on one side and on the hull side and clamp together (not sure if I need another glass sheet) and let it dry and reassemble ( oh and if tabs were cut I will need to retain)
Am I missing anything
Post by: pyro225 on September 03, 2017, 06:54:38 AM
I'm thinking of laying all the floor except the last foot from the transom then when I split it chop the last foot of those stringers off and replacing or bolting and glassing another bit for additional strength from the sides it only because that splash well site full of water...
What do you think?
Post by: pyro225 on September 03, 2017, 06:59:17 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170903/a3d139200a4447482883651171c5ce2f.jpg)
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Post by: thedeuceman on September 03, 2017, 08:36:50 AM
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Post by: pyro225 on September 03, 2017, 08:43:42 AM
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Post by: Hyperacme on September 03, 2017, 09:08:25 AM
CVX 16 gets a new floor
http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=5388.0 (http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=5388.0)
Pictures are missing but go's into details on supply's and method's
79 CVX 16 Transom help
http://www.classicglastron.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=4864 (http://www.classicglastron.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=4864)
Post by: pyro225 on September 03, 2017, 12:38:33 PM
Could i either a) go old school and just put a single stringer in the middle at the bottom center like you guys mostly had over there? This will still be a massiv pain but less invasive I could take the tank out and just cut out for access... I could then glass it and if necessary brace old to new.
B) run new stringers parellel to old and bolt and glass in. Again could be a little more selective up front with the saw)
C) cut the stringers from windshield back replace join and reglass.
My preference order would be C,A,B
Are any of those realistically available to me?
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Post by: pyro225 on September 03, 2017, 03:48:41 PM
Any ideas?
Anyway that aside the reason I am struggling with this is that the boat is outside - no inside option and summer is ending... on a bit of a timeline and the transom was a massive bump in the road... as i say cutting and grinding these would make it a massive issue.
My brain is leaning more towards option a - the actual hull makeup seems identical to the single stringers I have seen and theoretically if I use poly resin the floor would need minimal prepping it's clean glass.
Does anyone know what size or type of wood it is? 3x2 pine or something? Can anyone see any immediate issues with my theory? I don't think the will be good enough alone the old stringers as they are but think I will take the tops of anyway....
Also if I do go this route as there is glass on the floor and I literally just clean it up, resin the ends and glass it in? Or will it need building up I read somewhere?
What's do you guys think to this approach?
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Post by: Plugcheck on September 03, 2017, 05:15:35 PM
Post by: pyro225 on September 04, 2017, 02:46:05 AM
Post by: pyro225 on September 04, 2017, 03:00:07 AM
Post by: pyro225 on September 04, 2017, 06:56:31 AM
Spent last 30mins of my lunch break with a grinder grinding the top glass off the stringers.
As suspected under the splash well and just in front where the crossmember is was glass badly and has black rotten spots. (only an inch or two) my friend grinder and i ground out as much black as we could until we got to solid wood. The majority is a nice light coloured sold wood. its warm this week so i will leave her uncovered hopefully to dry a bit, i will then hopefully do the new centre stringer once i hear back from you guys if its ok to glass straight to the glass on the floor, and the final thing before the floor goes on will be to mix some super thin resin and drench the old stringers in that before a sheet of glass is places back on.
i think the centre string is 3x2 so just waiting on best material before i man up and order - does it bend up at the bow or is it cut there?
Post by: thedeuceman on September 04, 2017, 07:22:54 AM
You made several comments about the fiberglass being good and clean, in order to get new resin and glass to adhere you're going to need to grind it was something course like 60 or 40 grit. I also whether you add a center stringer or decide to replace or sister a new stringers to the outer ones besides glassing it down you need to put tabs on the side, that is bias going down the side of the stringer and across the hull for a couple of inches to get the strength.
I hope that I didn't misunderstand any of your questions/comments and that I have help to answer some of them.
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Post by: pyro225 on September 04, 2017, 07:36:18 AM
I'm struggling to understanding the tabs on the side any pics? I was just going to wrap it and glass it and put some new cross members in are you saying I've missed a step? :-)
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Post by: Plugcheck on September 04, 2017, 08:11:17 AM
Post by: Oldfishguy on September 04, 2017, 08:54:54 AM
Your probably going to have to trim the single stringer in the aft a bit. Trial fit your stringer and floor boards and cut the stringer so the floor sits flat with the slight groove on each side of the hull. I had my plywood floor in three sections so they were easy pieces to handle in this trial fitting process. Make sure it all fits nice before starting with the resin.
The ugly part is done for you in ripping it all out; now comes the fun part of reassembly.
Best of luck.
Post by: pyro225 on September 04, 2017, 09:16:30 AM
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Post by: Hyperacme on September 04, 2017, 10:13:31 AM
See picture "v156stringer" & "v156floor"
My floor is only 2 feet 6 inches wide at it's widest point near transom ...
See picture "floorTab2" , red line is distance.
Single stringer makes more sense, and is how all USA version were done.
Wondering if your boat hasn't already been rebuilt by a previse owner ?
As Mike said ... we all have gone into rebuilds hoping for a quick easy fix, only to find out we'll need a complete rebuild.
Take your time, remove and grind out everything, you'll be happy you did in the end ...
Post by: pyro225 on September 04, 2017, 11:53:58 AM
Do you glass the underside of he floor and did glastron? My ssv151 and this just had resin paint on the bottom - is that normal? Same as transom on both. Think I will go pine unless anyone tells me not to... cheers
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Post by: pyro225 on September 04, 2017, 11:57:56 AM
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Post by: pyro225 on September 04, 2017, 12:50:14 PM
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Post by: Hyperacme on September 04, 2017, 01:09:24 PM
Note how floor go's all the way from edge of hull to other edge
Picture "FloorTab2" is a picture of my 1976 CV16.
Note how floor board only go's from one chime to the other, only two and one half feet wide.
The floor in your CVX16 should be about that width, going from one chime / stake to the other, maybe under three feet.
I never measured my stringer because it was still solid and not in need of replacement.
Cut out floor, save seat boxes for measurements latter, remove stringers, grind out old fiberglass and tabbing.
Lay straight edge between chimes / stakes where floor wood would sit in chime and take measurement along the length of hull.
That will tell you height of wood you need.
Width shouldn't be more then two inches.
You could make a pattern with something and make adjustments or just use wood and add shims for low spots along hull/ floor.
From Chad's pictures ... Looks like the floor is only about two and a half feet wide.
Not sure how you can get up under deck to replace stringer ?
Post by: pyro225 on September 04, 2017, 01:36:16 PM
The old stringers look like they are raised near the bulk head ... here are some pics - also I have just had the glass off the top of the old stringers a few hours and they are a lot drier already so I think I will leave them but of bonus strength :-)
I also found something not nice on the outside lower hull in the middle - 4 rust spots either side??? Any ideas what this is? One of the feels like there is some metal coming out that's rusting - pics too...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170904/270b002588d5fe2affb89e2efb2e8506.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170904/49a86b2a2b1fdbf912a3680a066488a4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170904/eea3bf8e7b60dd6db13811a7202ed83e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170904/93eef97f94c7fa3fe756b3482c30e421.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170904/372a11394ffbb932e7ef16c5031ae800.jpg)
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Post by: pyro225 on September 04, 2017, 01:59:25 PM
Are you saying these are screws from the stringers? And if so what the best way to fix this mess... this really is the gift that keeps giving
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Post by: thedeuceman on September 04, 2017, 02:49:23 PM
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Post by: Hyperacme on September 05, 2017, 08:29:06 AM
Except the "OMG !" statement ...
Looks like when they screwed down the plywood floor over the old floor they used screws that were to long and went thru hull.
You can fix them using the method posted. I would not fill holes completely, but leave some room to apply gel coat patches to match hull color.
Post by: Plugcheck on September 05, 2017, 09:49:41 AM
Post by: pyro225 on September 05, 2017, 03:33:27 PM
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Post by: pyro225 on September 07, 2017, 07:02:40 AM
Yea I have convinced myself I know what's happened... so we discovered it had a new floor... layer ontop of the old - these are nails no where near the stringers they are right on the edge... it looks like they nailed new floor to old then chucked some glass down! Any idea best way to get them out? Use multi tool inside drill outside?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170907/1f494e413875e90c3c8f9c6c1226613b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170907/929ab45bd26c61c45322b02a3e5b8693.jpg)
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Post by: Plugcheck on September 07, 2017, 07:27:29 AM
Post by: pyro225 on September 07, 2017, 11:28:37 AM
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Post by: Plugcheck on September 08, 2017, 09:37:24 AM
Post by: pyro225 on September 09, 2017, 01:10:49 AM
Separate question same subject I've been in touch with a couple of people on here who had rebuilt cvx16 and one has told me the my use 6x2 for the stringer... there is no way this woul fit until it nearly got to the bow where the floor rises up ... from the bow back 3x2 is all I can get - are the string usually the same size or would it be 6x2 planes down to 3x2 in some bits? Finally still trying to work out how far into the bow it should go (sorry don't have a template) does it just go as far as it can flat or do you need to bend for the bow and keep going somehow?
Thanks as always!
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Post by: thedeuceman on September 09, 2017, 07:46:28 AM
It sounds like you are going to use dimensional lumber, then the width of it needs to be what the max height of the original stringer was.
I fully understand not having the template as when I rebuilt my GT 150 all the wood was out of it before I got it, you should be able to see you where the original floor was tabbed in around the edges, use that as a guide for a straight edge to locate the height of the stringer.
I ended up making it cardboard template, I cut the stringer a little bit big and sanded or ground it to fit the hull so the straight edge left on the top was at the height of the bottom of the floor.
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Post by: Plugcheck on September 09, 2017, 10:35:25 AM
Post by: pyro225 on September 11, 2017, 07:56:59 AM
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Post by: pyro225 on September 25, 2017, 02:30:36 PM
You can see she’s nice and red now and I should have done this post split as you can see I went through the splash well with a chisel and multi tool. Breaking the cap from the transom took four hours and a load of blades. Think I will fill my war wounds where I’ve gone through it then I will make a transom plate
- extra strength anyway.
Now I need some friends to lift it - is two people enough ? Is it flimsy /mega fragile?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170925/600f17fca336241c627d3b227320e898.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170925/e561e52e1b35e8253a3d69cac706bdd9.jpg)
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Post by: fireman24mn on September 25, 2017, 02:42:27 PM
Post by: pyro225 on September 25, 2017, 05:38:34 PM
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Post by: nes-cv23 on September 25, 2017, 06:04:09 PM
Post by: Plugcheck on September 25, 2017, 09:19:49 PM
Post by: pyro225 on September 26, 2017, 06:09:35 AM
Also the marks are no where near the floor or the stringers as I originally thought which also makes me think maybe they are external marks...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170926/1266db072396b88556b039595fb341b5.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170926/b67a0c8a6f251ce1cf7c48d5ccafc630.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170926/c2abfcf38bdb08226a0626f890942ec6.jpg)
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Post by: pyro225 on September 26, 2017, 10:37:31 AM
Also I have a very thin spider crack about a foot and a half long either side in the chine - can I just lightly sand back and gel for now?
Final job of the day was being a man and cutting all the way to the bulk head out of the floor! Most said it but I wasn’t hearing it lol. Can I get away with leaving the bow floor normally? I am going to make a small incision for the end of the string it goes up the bow about 1.5ft
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170926/a00b922f5ee008778ba3faf117aadf28.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170926/b6ee468855b71486bcf803b6c7cf62c2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170926/08125137d70bdabcb3306b79c227dee0.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170926/1a56db89a8a98a1da34bcc0837b9c987.jpg)
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Post by: Oldfishguy on September 26, 2017, 12:17:56 PM
Don't feel bad about taking some time to come to that conclusion of cleaning everything out; we all have had that experience when taking apart our craft.
It would be fair to say most of us have spider cracks in our exterior hull as well, with most being in the stern, exterior of the wood transom. It appears it is caused by the hull flexing slightly especially when the wood structure behind it starts to rot and become less stable. If I'm guessing correct your center keel beam was failing and someone just added two extra beams along side it and then ran screws from the outside into the beams for extra strength. Odd, no doubt about it, but very fixable as you are finding out. Personally, I think I'd go back to just one center keel beam.
As far as the bow floor: I replaced to just past the kickboard on the floor and the remaining bow floor beyond the driver's feet is original. I simply spliced the keel beam in, added cross wood supports and glass/resin it into a seamless appearance.
Gel or paint the bottom, it is up to you; is anybody really ever going to see the bottom though? I'd wait to make that decision last and see what you have energy for.
Best of luck.
David
Post by: pyro225 on September 26, 2017, 04:28:54 PM
Either way they are drying out nicely they were just under 50% moisture 3 weeks ago when I ground the tops off now we are at mid 30s... I will eventually after fitting the new center poor a very acetone thinned mix all over the old...
Cheers
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