Minnesota Classic Glastron Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: UKMike on September 06, 2018, 12:59:16 PM
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Hi all,
I have a question that I'm sure one of you will be able to answer, I have a laser 2 21p prop on my Merc but when I take it off the hub seems to come off with the prop and it seems to be a fixed hub, I have looked online and there seems to be a hub called a torq flo 4 that looks similar but that's too new for my prop, does anyone have any ideas?
Best
Michael.
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Flo-Torq hub props will have the round PVS holes.
You can Google part number stamped on prop to find out what it is.
Laser II info ..
https://www.mercurymarine.com/en/us/propellers/sport-series/laser-ii/ (https://www.mercurymarine.com/en/us/propellers/sport-series/laser-ii/)
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I believe your asking about the "Insert" a square piece of plastic that fits inside the prop, then the metal part goes inside to adapt to the splines of the output shaft. The Flo-Torq fits many props, but I had a prop with a permanent rubber insert that stripped out. I was able to press that out and use the flo torq hub in it. Anyway, it is possible your prop came with a permanent hub, but I thought the Laser was new enough that it was designed for this type of hub.
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Thanks and yes it's a fixed hub "permanent rubber insert" and it looks like the flo torq 4 is the replacement part, but I assume it would mean removing the existing rubber and long sleeve metal insert. I guess this would need a hydraulic press or something. Does anyone know where I can find the info on the older permanent rubber fixed hubs? And I wonder if this is pressed out if a standard flo torq would then fit the unit. Do you think Mercury is the best call to make to find out?
Best
Michael.
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Any prop shop should be able to re-hub your prop.
Don't think it's something you can do at home.
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Certainly a prop shop could assist, but they prefer to sell new rather than spend time on old props. I suppose you'd have to ask them before deciding. Our local shop told me to toss it. One friend suggested burning the hub out, but I ended up pressing it out, then found the flo torque fit well. BTW, my rubber hub stripped out, so the prop could not be used. Maybe it could be cut or drilled out?
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So a old press fit hub can be removed and a Flo-Torq hub will fit in ?
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So a old press fit hub can be removed and a Flo-Torq hub will fit in ?
I took my SS prop in for repairs and I was told the hubs weren’t interchangeable
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Can't say which ones it works on, but I had one on the 16ss that I removed the center and rubber shock part. This was because it was frozen on the prop shaft and the center broke free trying to pull the prop off. I took it in and asked if they had a new hub, and the flo torque 2 hub kit fit perfect. Fairly certain it was a merc prop.
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Only some of the Mercury stainless props originally equipped with pressed in rubber hubs can accept the Flo-Torque hub insert. The one I currently have on my boat, an old Quicksilver stainless was such a prop. A prop shop can push out the old hub and tell you weather or not the plastic insert will work, it depends on the shape inside the hub.
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After seeing a torq-flow insert I’ve decided they require a special hub.
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Thanks all 😀
From my research there are 3 different flo torqs that fit the Merc props and one is for the laser solid insert prop, which is what my laser 2 is and what a prop it is..... I hit the shingle a couple of times and now I have vibration even after putting in a new shaft so it must be the inner mount or insert as they call them. I don't want to throw the prop away, as I have the Merc substitute prop as a replacement and there is no comparison, my laser also has the vent holes where the new one doesn't and the difference really is noticeable, I still have no idea why they stopped the laser 2 props, they are fantastic......
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Ya .. Merc's web site is confusing on Laser II's ..
Laser II's could have been replaced by Vengeance prop for Alpha and large gear case outboards ?
Have you seen this brochure ?
https://embed.widencdn.net/pdf/plus/mercurymarine/mvqhcv0eoi/Mercury-Propellers-brochure.pdf?u=orhjei
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Tempest Plus is the recommended replacement for the Laser II for V-6 outboards. The Vengeance looks more like a replacement for the QSS Stainless.
Here are some images from the 1991 prop catalog, it includes Mercury part numbers. These are all pre-Flo Torq II hubs. It looks like the Flo Torq II system also uses different thrust washers so if you change prop hub styles be sure to use the correct thrust washer for the prop.
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Thanks and all really helpful. I have the vengeance as the replacement and there is no comparison between that and the laser 2 so I might take this laser to a prop shop and see what they say, and if it can be replaced I will have it done as the new high performance props really are much more expensive here in the UK and we have an additional 30% whamo on the retail price due to import duties...
I'll take some photos and upload as soon as I get the work done so there is a reference for others 8)
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Looks like the tempest pro is indeed the correct replacement :)
I have another question based on all this, I have purchased a new lower unit but the gearing is different on the new mercury lower units, the old one for the v6 135 was 1.87 and the new ones are 2.01.
So my question is, in order to get the same performance as my old laser 2 21p RH do I need to change the prop pitch up or dawn? I was given some advice that I should go to a 23p if using the same type laser 2.
Can anyone advise if this is right as I have managed to locate a new old stock laser 2 23p.
Best
Mike
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To maintain the overall drive ratio you would prop up. The 23 would certainly be worthy of giving it a try. Mathematically it can be calculated, but I'm afraid you'll still need to try various props to see what it's most happy with.
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Thanks Michael, the 21p was perfect with the right amount of lift and speed, I wonder if I should get an borrowed prop to see if the 23 is right..... mm do you know the calculations needed to work it out or is there an online calculator that will hep work it out?
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Many of the manufacturers websites have online prop calculators.
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Thanks again 8)
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Your 2.0 liter 135 V6 should have come with a 2:1 gear ratio. The 1.87:1 gears were used on the 2.4 liter motors.
My 1986 135 V6 and my 1998 135 V6 both had 2:1 gear ratios. Here is the 1988 spec page from Mercury for the 2.0 liter motors.
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Great thanks, I think, now that's confusing as I counted the pinion gear teeth as advised and it was the one for the 1.87, well at least I think it was. Can you advise?
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Great thanks again and you were absolutely spot on!!! it's the 14 teeth version which is the 2. ratio so I need to get the same prop and not a different pitch. Thanks for your help, nearly made a massive and expensive mistake there!!!
:) 8)
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Now I have a massive issue, I purchased what I thought was the right new lower unit and it is right except one very important thing, and that's the length!!!!!!!!
I was told it was an X long but it seems to be 6 inches shorter than the X long so it can only be a Long, Mercury won't take it back as I purchased through a reseller and it was shipped into the UK so I am now stuck with a new prop, new lower unit that won't fit... Grrrrrrrrrrrr
Does anyone have any suggestions? I have been trying to locate a Mercury 5" extension sleeve 78147 but can't get one in the UK. Plus if I got one of those I would also need the water pipe, gear change shaft extension and longer studs, which are also not available in the UK. The only other option I can think of is to get a NEW long shaft and bearings and replace that in the new unit (voiding my warranty).
So either way I am totally stuck. I got up and 03:30 this morning travelled 120 KM to fit the new unit to find out it was wrong. I'm so so annoyed right now I feel like just giving up..... :-[ :( >:( :'(
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You got a Long 20" on your motor now and you just brough a X-long 25" LU ?
Your CVX needs a long shaft 20", a X-long 25" will have issues on a long shaft transom.
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Thanks Gregg and yep that's exactly right, so I guess the only option now id to buy a new long shaft and have that installed into the lower unit voiding the warranty. Or if I buy the extension plate and make it an extra long but move the mount plate up 3 holes, wgich should move the prop up into about the same position, the only worry I would have with that is the weight of the block would by 5" higher... mmm do you know what issues the XL would create?
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So I'm really confused now. I thought the CVX hulls required a 20" outboard, the 25" were used on tall transoms and some pontoons. So you have a LU for a 20", isn't that what came off your motor? Or you had a 25", bought a new 20", and your looking to extend it? Most performance folks are trying to get the LU higher via backplates and modified transoms. In the end, the cavitation plate is roughly even with hull bottom.
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Maybe Rich or Dane will see this and respond as I'm just guessing ..
Friend had a small Checkmate with short shaft (15") transom, he couldn't find a SS motor so mounted a long (20") shaft motor.
This was 100 years ago and we didn't know what a JP was back then or if there even was such a thing .. LOL
Boat would porpoise bad ! He didn't have T&T but pretty sure that wouldn't have helped much. Also sure he lost some speed ..
So .. I'm guessing here .. a X-long LU would have a longer drive shaft and shift shaft but be the same otherwise ?
You could replace shafts with long (20") shaft parts, guessing that would be very expensive ..
I know they made shaft extensions for 4 & 6 cyl. Merc's but not sure about V6's.
Have you looked on eBay to see if any parts are available ?
You could make a X-long work with a JP, not sure how much weight it would add, but I don't think it would be that bad.
JP would add weight also ..
Or you could sell X-long on CL or eBay and buy a long (20") shaft LU.
I'm still kind of confused on what you did or want to do.
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Maybe why you got the wrong one ?
From a post by Rich on FB …
By today's standards there are no more 15 inch short shaft engines above something like 30 hp so they consider 20 inch as a short shaft, 25 inch is long shaft, and 30 inch extra long.
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Yes I purchased the 25"XL shaft as that's what I was told it was but the correct one is a 20" lower unit.
So the new unit I have purchased has the longer drive shaft, so I either purchase the extension plate with gear extension and water XL water pipe or I purchase a new shorter 20" shaft and break down the new lower unit and put the 20" in it stead of the 25".
I think that will work and that they are the same diameter but I'm not sure and that's why I really need advice. The inky other thing I can think of doing is buying the extensions to make the new long shaft fit and the raise the motor up 3 hole on the transome mount so the the prop is about the same height as it was with the 20".
Would the prop being an extra 5" deeper in the water be better or worse?
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"Would the prop being an extra 5" deeper in the water be better or worse?"
You will lose speed and maybe start proposing.
Lifting your motor all the way up will help, but not sure how high it will go.
Distance from top hole to bottom hole on my 1989 Mariner 115 HP motor is 3".
Yours mounting holes look about the same as mine.
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So I guess it would work and as you say approx 3" so would only be 2" deeper than it is now. That does worry me though if that 2" could change things that much, I know it was finely tuned and the setup was just right. So I guess I have no option but to get a new 20" shaft and put it in. I had better get the shop to do this as I'm not too good with the shimming and backlash settings.
Does anyone k ow if I can put a new 20" shaft in the XL LU without causing any issues?
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You could check out a site with parts break down, to see which parts will work.
Crowley Marine,
http://www.crowleymarine.com/mercury_mercruiser_parts.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2q-O7vzi3QIVCYlpCh3BcwBJEAAYAyAAEgJcSvD_BwE (http://www.crowleymarine.com/mercury_mercruiser_parts.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2q-O7vzi3QIVCYlpCh3BcwBJEAAYAyAAEgJcSvD_BwE)
Quick scan of parts .. And I'm not sure if there the right parts you need .. BUT …
Drive shaft = $660
Shift shaft = $60
You should check with a shop / Mercury dealer about parts and laborer.
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Great thanks, I think it needs to get it to the shop and they can put in a new long shaft and set the backlash.
Thanks again Gregg, much appreciated.
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Have you tried the Reseller that you used to purchase this lower unit? Maybe they will take it back. A restocking fee might be cheaper than purchasing new drive and shift shafts.
What was wrong with your old lower unit? Can you reuse components to do the conversion?
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Thanks for the response and the old unit had just been rebuilt but didn't know if the vibration was coming from the prop or the main drive shaft, replaced just about everything but the propeller "laser 2 fixed mount and the main drive shaft. So the issue was with one or the other. So I decided to get a new lower unit and new prop but the lower unit I got was an XL not a long, so I have since purchased a long shaft and had the shop fit it in the new lower unit, so everything is now new BUT I now have another issue that I just can't believe......
I've put the new tempest pro prop on tonight and all good except the prop is bigger than my laser 2 by quite a bit, but that's expected as it's a better prop BUT again the issue I now have is that the anode is now in the way of the prop, does anyone know if there is a different anode or a cap to cover the anode plate hole?
I was told that this prop is the replacement for the laser 2 but it seems too big, hitting the anode is no good obviously and it's a good job I fitted this in my bathroom or I could have had real issues when putting it in drive for the first time!!!!
Should I send the prop back?
Best
UKMike
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There are different styles of anode plates, with and without the torque tab. The Tempest is a high rake angle prop and that is why it interferes with the standard anode.
One like this might work. I do not know if this is the correct part number for your 135.
https://www.amazon.com/Quicksilver-822777Q1-Aluminum-Trim-Anode/dp/B000RZSJJ2/ref=sr_1_1?s=boating-water-sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1539293299&sr=1-1&keywords=trim+tab+anode (https://www.amazon.com/Quicksilver-822777Q1-Aluminum-Trim-Anode/dp/B000RZSJJ2/ref=sr_1_1?s=boating-water-sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1539293299&sr=1-1&keywords=trim+tab+anode)
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Thanks Aquamaniac,
I was really disappointed when I saw it would hit the new tab that came with the lower unit, but if it's easy to resolve then that's great, do you suggest getting an aluminium one so that it works as a anode too or does it not matter?
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Since you are operating in salt water, I think the anode would be important.
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Thanks again, do you know where I can see a parts list of the Merc anodes for the 135 with the props with extra rake? That link you posted shows 35 and above, it is probably the one I need but I want to make sure as I will need to import it so want it right.
Best
UKMike
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With hydraulic steering I don't think you need the tab.
You could get a blank plate or cut the fin off on the one you have.
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The torque tab is important to cancel the props desire to affect the steering. It's a trial and error process, I like to set mine for zero steering effect at the rpm I use most often. I would either buy the correct profile for your application or, you could trim yours for clearance and test for best results. Personally, I'd trim it. With a SS prop, about 7-8mm is more than enough.
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Thanks all, Plugcheck, when you say trim for clearance do you mean grind back the new tab until I have enough clearance? id be a little worried about doing that due to the prop flexing under pressure unless you have an idea of how much the minimal clearance is required to be safe? I just purchased one of these to try, do you think this will do the job?
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Since you have the new offset tab, give it a try. An aluminum prop flexes a bit more than a stainless prop does.
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Thanks Michael, appreciate your advice.
Regards
Mike