Author Topic: Not too good of a day boating (Read 47041 times)

Rosscoe · « **on:** July 06, 2013, 08:28:10 AM »

Got out in the V175 for the first time this season and 2nd time ever yesterday. Engine started good. Headed out across the lake and pushed the throttle up approaching 4K rpms. After maybe a minute or less, the engine started stumbling but then came back. I thought I might have accidently hit the control, but then it happened again and this time it died. Took a look under the dog house for anything obvious and found nothing. Fired it up again and slowing started heading back to the landing and it died again. We were on the wavy side of the lake so I dropped anchor and we decided to eat out sandwiches and chips. Started it again and started to head back to the landing again but only made it about 30 feet and it died again. Definitely seemed like a fuel issue so I climbed under the dash and replaced my mini filter. It really didnt look too bad but changed it anyways. Started and ran for a few minutes and died. By this time an older gentleman was down on his dock and waved us over. We were only about 100 feet from shore but the waves were pushing us to his neighbors dock and paddling was futile. Once we reached shore, we just walked it over to his dock and he and his wife help us tie off and use their large fenders from a pontoon boat. I then removed the filter from the carb and it looked pretty clean. Looked for any kinks and found none. Next, I removed the drain plug from the bottom of my Racor filter and let some gas and whatever run out. Looked brownish, like a combination of old gas and rust. Not having found anything obvious, I was concerned about making the run for the landing but did start it and let it run at the dock for about 10 minutes and decided to go for it. The nice people said worse case, we might be able to walk it to the landing along the shore line but of course there were many docks we'd need to go around. No pics were taken due to my rising blood pressure.

Rosscoe · « **Reply #1 on:** July 06, 2013, 08:37:08 AM »

We put on or life jackets in case we had to dive in and keep the boat away from docks etc. Reluctanly untied from their dock and idled away. I wanted to nail it and make as much progress as possible before it died again but chose to idle until I saw the landing, the goosed it so we could coast in if nothing else but it kept running.
Got it loaded on the trailer and I just wanted to run it there with the rear end in the water for awhile. Landing wasn't busy at the time so thats what I did. Revved it up several times but it wanted to push the Montero up the landing so not too much of that. When we got home, decided to pump all the gas (1/2 tank) out with a manual squeeze pump which took forever. Couldnt get a good continuous syphon. Got about 8 gallons out and the gauge said near empty and that was all we could get. My conclusion is a combination of bad old gas and a rusty tank. I do not know what I will do about the tank at this point since the hull would have to be split to get it out or it would need to be cut out which I wouldnt be too crazy about, You know, gas and sparks.

Rosscoe · « **Reply #2 on:** July 06, 2013, 08:41:11 AM »

For the most immediate future, I am going to run it off a portable tank or two and see how it behaves. They are going to take up space in the boat which I do not want so I have to come up with something more permanent fast. Looking at that Kreem coating but I am not sure how I can get the entire inside coated with the tank being where it is plus I'd have to pump that stuff out if it doesnt bond properly. I may contact Tank Renew and see if there is anything they can do with the tank onboard but I doubt it.
If anyone has some suggestions, I'm listening.
I plan on taking some accurate measurements to see if there is ANY WAY to get it out.

WetRaider · « **Reply #3 on:** July 06, 2013, 09:54:16 AM »

That doesn't sound like fun, Ross.
At least you had docks available to make use off along the shoreline.
If you have a portable tank, I'd definitely use that as a way to isolate the problem. Can you get your fuel line where it connects at the tank? Or will you have to use a separate line from the portable to your motor? If you can use the existing fuel line, and only cut out the tank, if the problem continues then you know the problem is past the tank and your tank is likely ok. If the tank is ok and the problem continues I would probably just replace the fuel line - at roughly $2/foot the whole purchase wouldn't be but $20-$30, and would save a ton of time trying to isolate something in the line - and you'd have that peace of mind moving forward that you have brand new fuel line in.
Sorry to hear about the trouble ...

Rosscoe · « **Reply #4 on:** July 06, 2013, 10:02:54 AM »

All the fuel line in the engine bay is brand new. The original copper line runs up the gunnel to the tank. I've got a rubber line going from my Racor to the fuel pump so I would likely just disconnect at the fuel pump and add the portable tank line there.
I know the tank has rust in it but with 3 filters, I would think it would catch most if not all of the crud. I am thinking it may just all be bad gas. I bought the boat in the spring of 2009 and first ran the boat fall of 2012 but did add about 10 gallons to the tank hoping that would dilute the old gas but even the stuff I added last fall is probably considered "old gas" these days.
Not sure what the proper way of storing these off season. Full tank to maybe retard tank rust or empty it so it isn't old gas come summer time.
I think we may go out tomorrow after Joni gets done with work and I should have a tank or two plumbed in by then. I am chomping at the bit to crank this thing up. It sounded great up at about 4200 for the short time I was there.
Additionally, with the new line, Racor filter, the fuel pump is brand new as is the Carb rebuild and new plugs, wires and Unilite electronic ignition and wiring harness. I am pretty confident it is a fuel issue.
Heading out on someone elses boat (pontoon) today so maybe it will be more relaxing.

Rich_V174SS · « **Reply #5 on:** July 06, 2013, 11:08:01 AM »

I just worked on a boat for someone with the same issue as you describe. Sounds to me like an ignition coil problem, breaking down under load when hot. I replaced the guy's coil and it runs fine now. Just something to consider if it's not a fuel problem.

Jason · « **Reply #6 on:** July 06, 2013, 12:22:22 PM »

Yea, try a different tank. Seems like you would have a lot more crud in your filters then the way you made it sound for it to be causing the problem. Could also be fuel pump, carb floats, tank vent hose (but I think you corrected this). Could also be ignition. I think you have the Petronix...right?

V153 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 06, 2013, 10:04:53 PM »

Ya I spose it might be ignition/overheated coil, but it couldn't have been all that hot after sandwiches & chips? Think I'd start with isolating the fuel source. Lot cheaper ...

Fwiw there isn't a mass produced fuel filter finer than about 10 microns. You need one about 2 microns to trap rust.

Rosscoe · « **Reply #8 on:** July 06, 2013, 10:35:14 PM »

As always. I appreciate the input.
Technically its a Mallory Unilite ignition so I guess a Petronix facsimile? And its never been run (other then being started briefly on the trailer) until this day. The coil is also brand new and not run until now but I suppose it could be bad. Anything is possible. I did end up breaking off one of the cheesey brass or copper studs on it when installing but there were enough threads to get the nut on.
For right now I am going with the fuel. At least half of what was in the tank was a minimum of 3 years old and it looked like 2 stroke gas when siphoned out.
Its weird that it ran great after leaving the dock we were at but I was hesitant to speed up as I didn't want to paddle or get out and pull it to shore but once close enough, I did nail it (partially because I was PO'd) and wanted to coast in.

Gas first, then on from there. Really wish there was someone around me that could be a "support" boat but I know it inside and out and think if it happens again, I'll get back to shore one way or the other.

WetRaider · « **Reply #9 on:** July 06, 2013, 10:46:37 PM »

Ross - I feel you in the isolated department.

My only friends with a boat out here are only on the lake 3 or 4 times a year & the boat stays in storage, never at the house.
I did get stuck once (spun prop that came with the boat), about a hundred yards from the ramp. Hooked my anchor up to the longest rope I had on board (50 ft) and flung it out as far as I could. Let it hit bottom and pulled myself gently towards the anchor. Pulled it up quickly and hauled it right back out - made it about 10 feet for each fling of the anchor - one of them took my fingernail with it. Finally got close enough that some fisherman offered to cast past me, let me grab his line, and I connected two of my ropes together, put his hook through the end of one rope, he reeled in my rope and pulled me the rest of the way.

I hope you get it figured out. We are just now feeling pretty confident in our mechanical soundness to be out alone. Good luck.

Rosscoe · « **Reply #10 on:** July 07, 2013, 08:03:34 PM »

Planned on getting out today but the weather turned crappy by the time Joni got home from work. I'm going to take my old coil with when we go out, just in case. I'll be running a remote tank with fresh gas. I am thinking now, bad gas wouldn't cause this as Rich alluded to. I think it would keep running but run lousy?
I may have to start thinking about a contingency plan. (reinstall Merc on the V163) but the ways things are going, I am leaning more towards not going to the meet if I don't get this running right. I wanted to take it last year and it just didn't work out. I still have some time. Haven't made my reservations for slip and camping yet.
No job prospects either. That isn't helping things.

CVX Fever · « **Reply #11 on:** July 07, 2013, 08:18:54 PM »

Ross - The remote tank sounds like a good idea. I'm no marine trouble shooting expert but seems like if it was starving for fuel it would lose power and then die. The way you described it sounds like it just cuts out which leads to me to believe spark/ignition. But who knows.

Hope ypu get it running for the meet regardless. I know you have put a lot of time and money into that boat and i'm sure your tired of working on it and ready to start enjoying it.

Jerry · « **Reply #12 on:** July 07, 2013, 09:58:42 PM »

Just a WAG, but I think your Racor filter is doing what it is designed to do, remove water. see what happens. If it runs bad dump the filter again. You can't get rust out of the tank without pulling it, but I think it might just be water.

Rosscoe · « **Reply #13 on:** July 08, 2013, 08:49:46 PM »

Made it back to the lake tonight with a remote tank and fresh gas. Lake was like glass. Motor fired right up and left the dock. Decided to stay close to the landing, just in case. Sure enough, within about 10 minutes it died. Probably running around 2k rpm. That doesn't seem to matter. Dies at any speed. Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't a resistors resistance change when heated? It felt hot to me. Its mounted right to the intake. I thought I would remove it from that heat source but found out it is grounded when bolted down so it wasn't starting with that unbolted. Hooked it back up after letting it sit for about 10 minutes. Poked around with my meter. 12V at the coil. Coil felt cool to the touch.
I did check the resistance of the ballast resistor and got about .2 ohms but being that it is in the circuit that didn't tell me squat. Is there a way to test a coil besides replacing it? Unfortunately, I threw away my old one which I RARELY do. If I buy another, I am pretty sure they won't let me return it since a person could burn it out. I don't get it if it is the coil. Its brand new and supposed to be a good match to the ballast resistor and Unilite ignition. I'll have to find my notes on the required resistance if I buy another coil.

Rich_V174SS · « **Reply #14 on:** July 08, 2013, 09:04:40 PM »

As far as I know the ballast is not grounded to the engine, or at least not supposed to be. It should be in-line with the 12v feed from the key switch. The coil should be of the type that requires an external resistor. The ballast is going to get hot when in use but I don't think it would get so hot that you couldn't touch it. It only has to absorb a couple so the coil doesn't burn up. I have seen new coils that were bad right out of the box and would fail exactly in the same manner as yours. Not sure if there's a way to test the coil other than a resistance test but when the problem is intermittent it's probably going to read OK before it fails.

Rosscoe · « **Reply #15 on:** July 08, 2013, 09:13:04 PM »

Right, intermittent. Do you think I would see some odd resistive behavior if I ran it with my meter on it?
I suppose I could have damaged it when I broke that stud off. We talked about that back then. Might have to spring for another and chalk this up as a POS.
I wonder if the guys at the auto place will know what I am talking about when I mention a ballast resistor and the coil needing to be of such an ohm reading (cant remember if its greater then 4 or less than 4 ohms). Suppose I could just check it on the spot before I buy it? I DO NOT want to get another online for this reason.
I guess in some ways I am glad its not the fuel and the whole tank removal fiasco might be able to wait.

thedeuceman · « **Reply #16 on:** July 09, 2013, 06:01:49 AM »

Like Rich said, ballast resistors don't require grounding.
I have two MerCruiser V8's here with point ignitions, they both have coils that worked when they were pulled out. you're welcome to borrow one of both of them and the ballast resistors that are with them if you want to troubleshoot it that way.

Jerry · « **Reply #17 on:** July 09, 2013, 08:48:15 AM »

I use coils with internal resistance. They don't use a ballast resistor. Just one less thing to deal with.

Jason · « **Reply #18 on:** July 09, 2013, 09:35:48 AM »

Quote from: Jerry on July 09, 2013, 08:48:15 AM

I use coils with internal resistance. They don't use a ballast resistor. Just one less thing to deal with.

I agree. Go this route. Sounds like your ballast and/or coil are cooked. I must have a dozen coils from derby cars you could try/have. Not sure how to tell if they are internally resisted or not. Is it suppose to say on coil?

OleRed · « **Reply #19 on:** July 09, 2013, 09:43:58 AM »

The resistor is a wire coil the heats up under a 12V load reducing the out-put voltage to 6V, those coils are designed to operate on 6 volts, running them on 12V will produce more spark, for a while, but it will cause them to over-heat and produce intermittant fire, and eventually just quit. Back in the day, when those coils were installed with an external resistor, you would find another wire from the starter solnoid that would sent 12V to the coil to produce more fire just to start the engine, but the engine would run on the 6V thru the resistor after it started. I use the coils that don't require a resistor also, and electronic ignition, if the coil requires an external resistor, it is normaly stated in print on the side of the coil, but that may not be stated on a coil with an internal resistor, but thats something you need to be aware of.