Author Topic: Not too good of a day boating  (Read 47039 times)

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Offline Jason

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2013, 09:46:47 AM »
From what I found out, Ford ignition coils after 1975 are internally resisted. I know i have some of these if you want one. We could maybe met up at a lake tomorrow evening. I'll bring a tow boat....just in case!
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O

Offline Jerry

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2013, 10:21:45 AM »
Chrysler started using ballast resistors when they went to 12 Volt back in 1957.  It was to lower the voltage to the points so they wouldn't pit. Ford and GM used a resistant wire to the coil. I'm not sure with solid state ignition it makes much difference. i have never seen a coil go bad, and then get good again. If you have an Ohm reading between the small terminals, and a reading between a small terminal and the center wire it should be good. If you know you're loosing spark (not fuel) I would be looking at the ign module. That may also require lower voltage to it, and if you rewired it you may have too much voltage to the module causing it to heat up and quit.
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Offline Rosscoe

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2013, 11:29:01 AM »
Well now I a really confused as to what to do next.
Concerning the Unilite electronic conversion I added and whether a resistor was needed, this is what I was told by Prestolite.

The following request has been updated: Click Here to view online
 
Electronic conversion-Mallory
 
Assigned:...............Ron Sims
 
Priority:..................Normal
 
Requester:..............Ross LaBelle
 
Status:....................New
 
Category:................Regular Question
 
Total Hours:.............0
 
Last Updated By:......Could Not Authenticate, View Ticket For User Info
 
COMMENTS:
 
Jim Sacco
Hours: 0 Commented On 9/16/2011 8:07:40 AM


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ross, The part number for the conversion kit is 559. It does require a primary resistance of 1.4 Ohms with a ballast resister and a coil as preferred or with a coil alone.
Thank you.

Ross LaBelle
Hours: 0 Commented On 9/16/2011 7:22:40 AM


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi I hope I am not duplicating this ticket but I think the last one didnt go through. Anyways I am looking for the correct electronic ignition conversion kit for my Mallory Marine distributor model YL520EV flat top. This is installed in a boat 350 chev with Berkeley Jet. JEGS thought it might be 650-559 but suggested I contact you to verify.. Thank you. Ross
 

Ross
61 Surflite 1964 90HP Johnson project
67 V163 Bayflite Super Sport  1989 100HP Merc
67 V164 Bayflite 120HP
67 V174 Crestflite Rat Rod
71 V175 Crestflite 350ci -Jet
73 GT 160
84 CVX 17  83 115 Merc
88 CVX-23 350 Mag

Offline Rosscoe

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2013, 11:32:02 AM »
I did manage to get back to the landing last night after letting it sit awhile. Then I made a B-line

Jason, you'd be more then welcome to come along and you shouldnt need to bring a boat. I dont go out that far while this is happening.

I've attached documents from both the Unilite ignition conversion and the coil. The reason I replaced the old ballast resistor (or kept one at all) is because of the part where they state "reliability improves...."
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 12:01:42 PM by Rosscoe »
Ross
61 Surflite 1964 90HP Johnson project
67 V163 Bayflite Super Sport  1989 100HP Merc
67 V164 Bayflite 120HP
67 V174 Crestflite Rat Rod
71 V175 Crestflite 350ci -Jet
73 GT 160
84 CVX 17  83 115 Merc
88 CVX-23 350 Mag

Offline Jason

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2013, 12:08:10 PM »
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O

Offline Rosscoe

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2013, 12:12:54 PM »
The resistor is a wire coil the heats up under a 12V load reducing the out-put voltage to 6V, those coils are designed to operate on 6 volts, running them on 12V will produce more spark, for a while, but it will  cause them to over-heat and produce intermittant fire, and eventually just quit. Back in the day, when those coils were installed with an external resistor, you would find another wire from the starter solnoid that would sent 12V to the coil to produce more fire just to start the engine, but the engine would run on the 6V thru the resistor after it started. I use the coils that don't require a resistor also, and electronic ignition, if the coil requires an external resistor, it is normaly stated in print on the side of the coil, but that may not be stated on a coil with an internal resistor, but thats something you need to be aware of.

Red so are you saying if things are wired right, I should see 12v on one side of the resistor and 6 on the other as well as at the coil?
I was reading 12v (key on) at the coil last night and didn't check the voltage at the resistor.
Ross
61 Surflite 1964 90HP Johnson project
67 V163 Bayflite Super Sport  1989 100HP Merc
67 V164 Bayflite 120HP
67 V174 Crestflite Rat Rod
71 V175 Crestflite 350ci -Jet
73 GT 160
84 CVX 17  83 115 Merc
88 CVX-23 350 Mag

Offline Rosscoe

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2013, 12:14:29 PM »
Or just put in a HEI for $40 and be done with it. I think I have one of these in the garage you can have too.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PH-SBC-BBC-CHEVY-V8-350-383-HEI-DISTRIBUTOR-WITH-65-K-COIL-WPM-HEI-350-BK-/190867455192?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c70963cd8&vxp=mtr



I've got several hundred into this set up and don't really want to give up yet.
Ross
61 Surflite 1964 90HP Johnson project
67 V163 Bayflite Super Sport  1989 100HP Merc
67 V164 Bayflite 120HP
67 V174 Crestflite Rat Rod
71 V175 Crestflite 350ci -Jet
73 GT 160
84 CVX 17  83 115 Merc
88 CVX-23 350 Mag

Offline thedeuceman

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2013, 12:35:16 PM »
The resistor is a wire coil the heats up under a 12V load reducing the out-put voltage to 6V, those coils are designed to operate on 6 volts, running them on 12V will produce more spark, for a while, but it will  cause them to over-heat and produce intermittant fire, and eventually just quit. Back in the day, when those coils were installed with an external resistor, you would find another wire from the starter solnoid that would sent 12V to the coil to produce more fire just to start the engine, but the engine would run on the 6V thru the resistor after it started. I use the coils that don't require a resistor also, and electronic ignition, if the coil requires an external resistor, it is normaly stated in print on the side of the coil, but that may not be stated on a coil with an internal resistor, but thats something you need to be aware of.

Red so are you saying if things are wired right, I should see 12v on one side of the resistor and 6 on the other as well as at the coil?
I was reading 12v (key on) at the coil last night and didn't check the voltage at the resistor.
it wont read 6v with the key on, and not running as there is no current flowing through the coil.
the mallory will only ground the neg side of the coil when the motor is cranking or running.
on a points set up, it would read aprox 6v with the key on if the points were closed.
Joe
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Offline Rosscoe

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2013, 12:41:03 PM »
No points Joe.
Thats the problem...if I knew what I was supposed to be reading, where and when, it would help.  ;D
Ross
61 Surflite 1964 90HP Johnson project
67 V163 Bayflite Super Sport  1989 100HP Merc
67 V164 Bayflite 120HP
67 V174 Crestflite Rat Rod
71 V175 Crestflite 350ci -Jet
73 GT 160
84 CVX 17  83 115 Merc
88 CVX-23 350 Mag

Offline Rosscoe

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2013, 08:53:48 PM »
So Rich, would you start with a coil swap? I think we may be installing one of Jason's spares tomorrow night and make a run to the lake.
Lots of different opinions on this but I am at a loss with stuff being new and if I wired something wrong, I wouldn't think it would even start!
Ross
61 Surflite 1964 90HP Johnson project
67 V163 Bayflite Super Sport  1989 100HP Merc
67 V164 Bayflite 120HP
67 V174 Crestflite Rat Rod
71 V175 Crestflite 350ci -Jet
73 GT 160
84 CVX 17  83 115 Merc
88 CVX-23 350 Mag

Offline Rich_V174SS

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2013, 09:05:43 PM »
Quote
So Rich, would you start with a coil swap? I think we may be installing one of Jason's spares tomorrow night and make a run to the lake.
Lots of different opinions on this but I am at a loss with stuff being new and if I wired something wrong, I wouldn't think it would even start!

It takes all of 5 minutes to swap out the coil. If it works then you've isolated your problem. One thing I have found out about installing a Pertronix ignition sensor in the distributor is not to wire the positive wire from the sensor to the positive terminal of the coil, the voltage drop from the ballast resistor could cause problems with keeping the engine running especially if other items in the boat are taking power. When I first installed mine I had it wired that way and the engine would almost stall if I operated the trim pump, too much power draw away from the ignition sensor. So, I wired the sensor's positive wire to a point in the circuit before the ballast so it gets the full 12v rather than the reduced voltage. The other wiring to the coil remained the same.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 09:10:53 PM by Rich_V174SS »
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Offline Jason

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2013, 09:56:20 PM »
Ross, I had a busy evening but will look at your pictures. I think we should meet up tomorrow somewhere in between hudson and your place. Maybe 6??? You pick. I'll bring the CV16SS too (it needs to get used anyway!) I'll bring a coil. Might even bring an HEI from an old derby car and a timing light. Maybe it's still fuel problems for all we know. Was that carb ever gone through? Can't remember.
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O

Offline Rosscoe

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2013, 10:25:49 PM »
Right, easy swap.

Yes the carb was freshly rebuilt last fall.
Are you thinking the river?
We'll talk tomorrow. I think I might prefer a lake due to current but we'll see.
Ross
61 Surflite 1964 90HP Johnson project
67 V163 Bayflite Super Sport  1989 100HP Merc
67 V164 Bayflite 120HP
67 V174 Crestflite Rat Rod
71 V175 Crestflite 350ci -Jet
73 GT 160
84 CVX 17  83 115 Merc
88 CVX-23 350 Mag

Offline Jason

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2013, 10:44:24 PM »
Yes lake. Or maybe Stillwater ramp on st. Croix. Current not bad there.
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O

Offline Jason

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2013, 11:02:04 PM »
Your wiring looks like you got it right and I don't see any grounding on the ballast as talked about earlier. Sure seems like either a coil or module problem. Like I mentioned a few times. I had problems with the Pertronix unit. I know this is a different brand. Just saying.....I wouldn't be surprised.
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O

Offline Rosscoe

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2013, 08:51:06 AM »
Isn't the St. Croix all No wake?
Otherwise if we go on the river, I'd suggest the ramp north of Stillwater just north of Wolf's marine?
I am not familiar with any lakes around there but I'll look this morning.
Ross
61 Surflite 1964 90HP Johnson project
67 V163 Bayflite Super Sport  1989 100HP Merc
67 V164 Bayflite 120HP
67 V174 Crestflite Rat Rod
71 V175 Crestflite 350ci -Jet
73 GT 160
84 CVX 17  83 115 Merc
88 CVX-23 350 Mag

Offline Jason

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2013, 09:58:26 AM »
The St. Corix no wake has been removed. Water levels are down. I am just not sure if the ramp is under water there ot not. Not sure how steep of a ramp it is.

Maybe Big Carnelian Lake? Never been there. looks nice. Here is the boat ramp.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=stillwater+mn&ll=45.130495,-92.817467&spn=0.00369,0.008256&hnear=Stillwater,+Washington,+Minnesota&gl=us&t=h&z=18
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O

Offline Rosscoe

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2013, 10:26:26 AM »
Never been there either. Looks good to me. Landing has a dock and looks like somewhere to beach if necessary.
6:00PM?
Ross
61 Surflite 1964 90HP Johnson project
67 V163 Bayflite Super Sport  1989 100HP Merc
67 V164 Bayflite 120HP
67 V174 Crestflite Rat Rod
71 V175 Crestflite 350ci -Jet
73 GT 160
84 CVX 17  83 115 Merc
88 CVX-23 350 Mag

Offline wexrocks

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2013, 08:38:39 PM »
I'll throw my experience in here, maybe it'll help, maybe not. I tried running the original Thunderbolt (external coil with electronic pickup distributor) on my stroker. Lots of people swear by them. I had ALL of the exact same symptoms, and every other part of the motor and fuel system were new. I worked through fuel tank and fuel pickup, bypassed fuel pump with electric, had the new carb apart at least five times adjusting float levels, checking fuel levels, so on and so on. Took the distributor apart twice, switched it with another and had it apart twice as well, and switched coils back and forth with each distributor. Always the same issue you are having, regardless of what I changed. I went to Pep Boys, spent $130 on the MSD Street Fire HEI style electronic distributor. One wire. Fixed. Not just fixed, but WAY more power, throttle response, and much better idle and starting, compared to the other setup on it's best day. I know you have alot invested, but there is an example of things I tried with no results. Maybe you can get your money back? Or maybe you can ebay it. Try the HEI that was offered, even stock they are pretty good units. Might be a fast solution to get back to boating. Like I said, some people swear by the external coil setups of all different kinds, and that's great if that's what they like, but I'll never do anything other than an HEI style again. Too simple and too reliable for me to bother risking it.
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Offline Jason

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Re: Not too good of a day boating
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2013, 09:46:12 PM »
Had a little bit different results today but I also never saw what happened the first time. Tried different coils and ballast resistor with no change in results. Seems to always be getting spark even after it kills. So here is what happens. Take off with a little hesitation from idle. Runs fine for a couple minutes, lots of power and sounds nice. Then this rattle noise pops up. Hard to hear where its coming from with the cover on but definitely in the motor. Maybe a valve tick or lifter. Then it loses power and will come to an idle and sometimes kill. But will fire right up. Does not really seem like ignition. If it were, I would say that module but it just seems to me like the carb is not dialed in and that rattle is a completely different issue. Think the rattle could be some kind of detonation?

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Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O