Author Topic: Just another day at the shop  (Read 40367 times)

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Offline Rich_V174SS

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Just another day at the shop
« on: May 27, 2014, 06:49:46 PM »
If anyone gets a boat with a built-in belly tank be sure to check it real good. At the shop where I work I'm working a 1992 Mako with a rotted out aluminum tank. I must have done about 5 other tank replacements within the past 2 years, all the same problem. Water getting into the tank, fuel leaking out, saturated smelly foam having to be dug out - a real nasty job sometimes. Below are a few pics from today. First of the tank after the floor panel was removed and the top of the tank cleaned off of grime and other unknown organisms that had been growing in there. The second showing the one hole in the tank I was able to find, right next to the fuel pickup connector. And third emptying the tank into water jugs and other portable fuel cans. The first jug I filled on the left was ALL water, 5 gallons of it. The second jug on the right at that point was half water, half fuel (fuel being the yellow liquid on top, water on the bottom). In all I had to drain out 62 gallons, 7 of which was water. We'll be replacing the tank with a poly tank of approximate size to fit in the compartment, we're not doing a custom sized tank on this job.

1967 V174 Crestflite SuperSport Modified
1987 Mercruiser 190 3.7LX/Alpha One

1970 V176 Swinger
1983 Mercury 115

Offline 75starflight

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2014, 07:01:20 PM »
WOW! I hope the tank in my CVZ is in better shape than that.
1975 v-179 starflite

Offline aquamaniac

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2014, 08:53:26 PM »
Rich,
I can't help but notice that the percentages match what you'd get with phase separation. Was that boater running ethanol fuel?

Offline Rich_V174SS

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2014, 10:22:14 PM »
Rich,
I can't help but notice that the percentages match what you'd get with phase separation. Was that boater running ethanol fuel?

It's all ethanol blended fuel around here. I don't think you can get non-ethanol on the east coast.. Not sure what you mean about phase separation though. ???
1967 V174 Crestflite SuperSport Modified
1987 Mercruiser 190 3.7LX/Alpha One

1970 V176 Swinger
1983 Mercury 115

Offline aquamaniac

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2014, 11:50:14 PM »
The blended fuel will absorb water until it reaches a maximum concentration then the fuel separates into the alcohol water mixture and the gasolene. The maximum concentration is temp dependent so in cold winter temperatures the amount of water before phase separation is only a few onces per 10 gallons of blended fuel. The fuel will not reblend. What you pumped out of that tank matches the 10 percent ethanol plus water.

It's been a huge problem here with the vented fuel systems.

In an outboard set up the oil stays mixed with the gas so if you suck the alcohol/water solution there's no oil lubrication.

Offline Rich_V174SS

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2014, 12:57:01 AM »
What I pulled out of the tank was recent. I siphoned the water out of this tank a couple weeks ago but then we had a lot of rain. That's where the new 7 gallons of water came from.
1967 V174 Crestflite SuperSport Modified
1987 Mercruiser 190 3.7LX/Alpha One

1970 V176 Swinger
1983 Mercury 115

Offline Hyperacme

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2014, 09:02:25 AM »
Looks like you would be OK ...

From Merc manual ...
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 09:09:14 AM by Hyperacme »

Offline Diamond Chad

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2014, 09:42:12 AM »
While talking built in fuel tanks, what are CVX tanks made from?  Are they subject to rotting out like the alum?
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Offline CVX Fever

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2014, 01:27:29 PM »
The tanks in the CVXs are mounted high and dry.  It's tanks like the one in my Searay that sit in the keel of the hull that can corrode from the ouside in due to laying bilge water all the time.

My anecdote for ethanol blended fuels is this. I've never witnessed phase separation with ethanol fuel or known anyone that has. I pumped 3 year old gas out of my wifes snowmobile after I couldn't get it started( which has a vented tank) and phase separation still hadn't occurred. The gas looked and smelled good so I put it in the tank of my GMC and burned it up. I ran our pontoon boat for 2 seasons on same tank of ethanol blended fuel. That gas was 18 months old by the time I put fresh gas in.

I suspect most issues with water contamination in fuel systems have absolutely nothing to do with ethanol blended gas. Boats like my CVX18 were built with water separator filters when ethanol fuels didn't even exist. What does that tell you.
1979 CVX18 "Back in Black"....someday!
1985 CVX18 " Only thing better than 2 CVX18's is 2 girlfriends!

Offline dorelse

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2014, 01:35:27 PM »
I'm with Kip.  Ethanol is an easy scapegoat when in all likelihood it had nothing to do with it.

My CVZ tank, which I know never saw an ounce of Ethanol gas in it, had quite a few pits, and even a corrosion hole in it from sitting in the floor.  Looked exactly like the ones pictured here.

 
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Offline 75starflight

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2014, 01:46:32 PM »
Ok, now i am curious! I think I will be pulling the tank out of my CVZ as soon as I get home tonight. I gotta know the condition of it after reading this post.
1975 v-179 starflite

Offline OleRed

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2014, 02:30:12 PM »
The damage to the tank Rich has pictured looks like to me the damage was caused from water outside the tank, being brine or salt, I've not seen that kind of deteriation from water being in an
aluminum tank, how ever much it contained, water seperates to the bottom of the tanks, just my 2 cents.  I've had a lot of boats with aluminum tanks, a few with 200 / 300 gallon aluminum tanks in the belly, salt water use, and one I had in Galvaston Tx. had two 400 gallon aluminum tanks that had been in there 20 years, and there was some corrosion damage to the outside of the tank, of which I grinded and coated with epoxy tank liner coating.  Two of the house boats I've owned had aluminum fresh, and grey water holding tanks, I didn't have any problem with those ?
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Offline aquamaniac

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2014, 03:08:51 PM »
I'm with Kip.  Ethanol is an easy scapegoat when in all likelihood it had nothing to do with it.

My CVZ tank, which I know never saw an ounce of Ethanol gas in it, had quite a few pits, and even a corrosion hole in it from sitting in the floor.  Looked exactly like the ones pictured here.

Scapegoat? I don't think I was blaming ethanol for anything. I was only pointing out that the amounts pumped out of that tank were in the percentages of what I would expect from a phase separation. Phase separation does occur, I've seen it but have not suffered from it. 10 percent ethanol would have been 6 gallons in a 60 gallon tank and depending on the temperature would probably take somewhere around a quart of water to cause phase separation.

If there was 7 gallons of water in that tank, the ethanol should have separated from the gasoline and blended with the water for 13 gallons of non gasoline liquid.

The water causes the phase separation.

All gas has some additives, so to some extent some water can probably be absorbed in any modern fuel. The water separator filter may do a fine job of removing water droplets, but is worthless against a phase separation condition. Ethanol fuels have been around a very long time. Long before Art Carlson or Bob Hammond were born.

Personally, I think ethanol blends are bad energy policy and a waste of food product, but I have never "blamed" ethanol for fuel going stale.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 03:12:57 PM by aquamaniac »

Offline 75starflight

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2014, 03:20:30 PM »
You know, I think we have this topic on ethanol come up at least once a year.
1975 v-179 starflite

Offline dorelse

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2014, 04:52:30 PM »
I'm with Kip.  Ethanol is an easy scapegoat when in all likelihood it had nothing to do with it.

My CVZ tank, which I know never saw an ounce of Ethanol gas in it, had quite a few pits, and even a corrosion hole in it from sitting in the floor.  Looked exactly like the ones pictured here.

Scapegoat? I don't think I was blaming ethanol for anything. I was only pointing out that the amounts pumped out of that tank were in the percentages of what I would expect from a phase separation. Phase separation does occur, I've seen it but have not suffered from it. 10 percent ethanol would have been 6 gallons in a 60 gallon tank and depending on the temperature would probably take somewhere around a quart of water to cause phase separation.

If there was 7 gallons of water in that tank, the ethanol should have separated from the gasoline and blended with the water for 13 gallons of non gasoline liquid.

The water causes the phase separation.

All gas has some additives, so to some extent some water can probably be absorbed in any modern fuel. The water separator filter may do a fine job of removing water droplets, but is worthless against a phase separation condition. Ethanol fuels have been around a very long time. Long before Art Carlson or Bob Hammond were born.

Personally, I think ethanol blends are bad energy policy and a waste of food product, but I have never "blamed" ethanol for fuel going stale.

I don't believe I called you out or anything...reread my post....where did I state that YOU were blaming Ethanol?  Ans.  No where.

Relax, I made a general statement based on all the fuel issues blamed on Ethanol across the internet.

I know I didn't deserve that response though...and yes Brandon, we've been here before...
1990 Sierra 1700

Offline Jason

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2014, 06:52:45 PM »
I'm with Kip.  Ethanol is an easy scapegoat when in all likelihood it had nothing to do with it.

My CVZ tank, which I know never saw an ounce of Ethanol gas in it, had quite a few pits, and even a corrosion hole in it from sitting in the floor.  Looked exactly like the ones pictured here.

Scapegoat? I don't think I was blaming ethanol for anything. I was only pointing out that the amounts pumped out of that tank were in the percentages of what I would expect from a phase separation. Phase separation does occur, I've seen it but have not suffered from it. 10 percent ethanol would have been 6 gallons in a 60 gallon tank and depending on the temperature would probably take somewhere around a quart of water to cause phase separation.

If there was 7 gallons of water in that tank, the ethanol should have separated from the gasoline and blended with the water for 13 gallons of non gasoline liquid.

The water causes the phase separation.

All gas has some additives, so to some extent some water can probably be absorbed in any modern fuel. The water separator filter may do a fine job of removing water droplets, but is worthless against a phase separation condition. Ethanol fuels have been around a very long time. Long before Art Carlson or Bob Hammond were born.

Personally, I think ethanol blends are bad energy policy and a waste of food product, but I have never "blamed" ethanol for fuel going stale.

I don't believe I called you out or anything...reread my post....where did I state that YOU were blaming Ethanol?  Ans.  No where.

Relax, I made a general statement based on all the fuel issues blamed on Ethanol across the internet.

I know I didn't deserve that response though...and yes Brandon, we've been here before...


I saw this coming...... There is really two completely different topics going on here. I think somewhere along the line there was a misinterpretation. I don't think anyone thinks the ethanol caused the corrosion.
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O

Offline OleRed

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2014, 09:44:18 PM »
if there in no water introduced to the ethanol blended gas, there would Not be a phase seperation, that was not the problem in the tank that adressed in this post, even the underground tanks at the filling stations are vented.
Ethanol has some issue with the early production seals and gaskets not designed for the ethanol, it does act as a drying agent for rubber and some gaskets, plastic tanks, etc, but most of this stuff has been generated to accept the ethanol, but if you don't introduce water to it, it don't seperate.

It's been a problem for yard equip, small motors, and such in the past, but like Doran said, it's been around a long time, not so much a problem any more, think Alcohol, we have all put tha in our tanks to absorb water.

The water seperating gas filters we have today, on our boats, are great, OEM, they have a shield kinda like a chamois skin inside then, water will absorb into the shield, but gas will pass thru it, when the shield is totally absorbed, it stops the gas from entering the carb, kinda neat, but some of the aftermarket filters don't function like that.   Gasoline will run right through a chamios skin we dry our cars and boats with, but water will not, it absorbs that, like the water seperation gas filters do.
1980 23ft Scimitar

Offline Rich_V174SS

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2014, 10:22:58 PM »
The original idea of the post was to show a tank replacement as part of my duties at the shop, and why the tank was being replaced. Corrosion from being in a wet enclosure along with a marine environment caused the tank to rot out, not the ethanol. I was also showing that water was entering the tank from rain, and just how much was getting into the tank from the holes that were created because the top of the tank was causing water to build up on its surface. That's about it. Wasn't intended to be a discussion on ethanol at all, but more of a constructional thread.
1967 V174 Crestflite SuperSport Modified
1987 Mercruiser 190 3.7LX/Alpha One

1970 V176 Swinger
1983 Mercury 115

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2014, 12:21:51 AM »
     Had issues with my Z belly tank, nothing terrible, just corrosion from rotten stringers and all.   Cleaned and sealed up the corrosion, then sprayed bed liner material over it to form a shield to prevent  future water issues.   As for fuel use, I never leave fuel in tank over winter, and change filters every year.   Never had an issue.   My tank rot was from the outside, not the inside.   
Michael
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1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
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Offline Rich_V174SS

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Re: Just another day at the shop
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2014, 11:17:20 AM »
That oil leak is indicative of a bad shift rod bushing seal but can also be from pitting around the shift rod where it sits inside the seal. Have the seal or rod replaced.
1967 V174 Crestflite SuperSport Modified
1987 Mercruiser 190 3.7LX/Alpha One

1970 V176 Swinger
1983 Mercury 115