Author Topic: Timi time  (Read 5541 times)

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Offline Green with Envy

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2017, 10:41:58 AM »
Early on, I used to have sections where the resin would seep into the hollow areas.  If applied in a certain manner, each honeycomb chamber is sealed by the resin and cloth and remains an air void.  I've been using it for several years now, and have developed a lay-up process that virtually eliminates any bleed-thru and retains buoyancy.

I'm planning to lay-up more pieces this weekend.  I'll post a video in my HPV restoration thread to avoid hijacking this one.
1974 Glastron CV-16 SS
1975 Glastron GT150
1984 Searay Sundancer
1979 Glastron HPV-175

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2017, 11:16:57 PM »
Boats that utilize foam or balsa for stringers are using the fiber glass laid up against them rely on the glass plies for strength.  I would agree that in this application composite materials would be a suitable substitute.  But when I cut out the stringers in this Timi, they have tabs and cloth cover.  I just don't see that as structural.  They basically relied on the 2x6 beam strength, and used glass to seal and captivate it.  I could see a composite use on the floor, and yes, as a stringer, but only if I plan to lay up at least 3-4 layers on either side vrs a capture layer.  Now when you consider the extra glass and resin required for composite stringers, I wonder if there is a weight savings.  I'll admit, I'm not a pro boat builder, just a DIY guy restoring old classic boats, so I tend to error on the side of on design.   Now the floor is a real possibility for composite, right now I'm considering it, or 3/8" play with cloth on both sides.   Just curious, how do you composite guys anchor seat mounts and such?
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline Hyperacme

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2017, 09:45:17 AM »
" Just curious, how do you composite guys anchor seat mounts and such? "

Diamond Chad's post ... "CVX 16 gets a new floor"

http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=5388.msg75070#msg75070
Gregg
'76 CV16

Offline Green with Envy

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2017, 09:54:20 AM »
I like how this conversation is going.  It shows that everyone has an opinion on how things should/could be done.  And, there are pros and cons to to each way.

There has been wood in boats since the first one was built.  Wood in a boat is not a bad thing.  I have a sterndrive boat as well as my project Glastron.  I would probably use wood on my engine stringers if I ever had to replace them.  Mostly for the ease of the repair, but also for the internal strength that wood offers and bolt holding power for the motor mounts.

1974 Glastron CV-16 SS
1975 Glastron GT150
1984 Searay Sundancer
1979 Glastron HPV-175

Offline Hyperacme

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2017, 01:40:53 PM »
I think details matter as much as materials.
All wood sealed, all holes sealed, over built, air bubbles removed from lay up, T-nut at bolt mounting locations, etc.
If done well, my CV would still be solid ... Lasted almost 40 years with exposed wood in stringers and under rear floor.

No right or wrong with materials used, just how it's done.
Gregg
'76 CV16

Offline Diamond Chad

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2017, 03:21:18 PM »
The 1/4" aluminum plates top and bottom, sandwiching the Plascore risers, is holding up very well after 2 years, and some pretty rough rides.  Boy's say they've had it airborne on Minnetonka.  Once the floor is in, you will never get a wrench under there, the bottom plate was tapped and threaded the bolts up through it so they can' "fall back" into the hull.
87 CVX18 5.7
88 CVX16 115 Merc
57 Dunphy Imperial Musky - 57 Golden Javelin
01 Malibu Sunsetter 21 LSV 340 EFI

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2018, 10:57:30 PM »
A bit cool outside tonight, so I decided to do a bit of work on the Timi.  Tim and I modified the cradle to support the hull, since it is different from the CVZ.  From what I found on the old interweb, it is a variable deadrise v hull?  I did a bit of exploring with the remaining wood that supports the ladder and transon/trailer u bolts.  Using a super high tech tool(screwdriver), I found even these pieces were rotten.   I decided to follow Jeff's advice and remove the grey filler type substance from the transom.  There is plenty of undulation in the glass transom, and I figured the existing material would hinder the rebuild rather than help it.  It broke out easily with a hammer and chisel, really did not bond well to the hull glass.  Wherever the filler was cracked, the glass underneath was blackened.  Not sure how deep, but I do need to grind it back to solid resin and fabric before glassing in the new transom.  Plan is to build one layer of 3/4" transom to span the entire width, then another 3/4" layer just the size of the transom.  Hopefully I will have some room to add knees into the stringers. 
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline makinwaves

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2018, 12:11:08 PM »
Transom pic.  I'll let Mike do the 'splainin'
1978 GT-150 "BOND BOAT" Mercury 115 T.O.P.
1978 CV-23 460/ JET

Offline Hyperacme

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2018, 01:36:43 PM »
All smiles !
Thing must be going well ...
Gregg
'76 CV16

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2018, 03:54:18 PM »
    I shall call it "The Manta Ray Transom"   The original had a 3/8" piece across the entire back, then two layers of 3/4" ply.   I designed a single 3/4" sheet the full width, then another 3/4" layer for the transom.  The cut outs for the exhaust and football are rough, we will trim and seal later once glassed into place.   The other cutouts(triangles) are for glassing in the cap at the transom, weight savings, and because we thought they look neat.  The area behind alongside the transom will be foam filled. 
  And yes, smiling because it is a heated shop in the midst of winter, working on a Carlson, some background music, and some cold frosty adult beverages.     A long way from the days of lying on cardboard over the frozen ground, changing a starter on a vehicle, in -10 degree weather.
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline Silver GT-150

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2018, 08:40:56 PM »
Those are great reasons to smile, I can relate!

Offline carlsoncvx18

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2018, 06:56:30 AM »
Mike I think you will need to add the 3/8 plywood back in to get the proper thickness.

I believe you need a minimum of 21/4 inch thickness for the transom assembly.

Hopfully somebody will confirm this.
1987 CVX18
1977 GT150 110hp Johnson
1986 CV23
1988 CVX18

Offline Green with Envy

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2018, 07:47:45 AM »
In the three I have done, the thickness tolerance is not crucial, to a point...

On a sterndrive, the gimbal halves are fastened to each other thru the transom with threaded studs/bolts.  There is enough thread remaining to account for a varying thickness transom.  The shaft slips in and out of the coupler.  There should be enough 'play' to account for a ⅜" difference in thickness without adjusting motor placement.

Outboard motors are similar with regard to hanging the motor.  The problem, I found out too late, was the splashwell on Project X.  It pushes up against the transom wood and shifts the positioning of the cap.  I was " off with cap placement and it affected one of the bulkheads up front.  I needed to make a minor adjustment for that.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 07:58:56 AM by Green with Envy »
1974 Glastron CV-16 SS
1975 Glastron GT150
1984 Searay Sundancer
1979 Glastron HPV-175

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2018, 08:43:32 AM »
      Jeff, you are absolutely correct, the transom thickness must be between 2" and 2.25" thick at the keyhole, consistent, and parallel.   Too thin and the drive coupler may bottom out, too thick and possibly not enough engagement.  I suppose possibly some issues with hardware holding it all together possibly as well.  This info from the Mercruiser manual.   As for the current Timi transom design, there are four layers of glass being added, 2 biax, 1 mat, and one 6 oz cloth.  With the ply and current glass transom, I'm at 1.75" thickness as measured when clamped, without any glass layers inserted.  I'm actually hoping to end up closer to 2" overall, rather than 2.25".    The final layer of cloth over everything before tabbing is added will happen after the lay up thickness is determined.  If needed, and additional layer may be required to make up the desired thickness.

     I appreciate you calling this out Jeff, good information for anyone working on a transom replacement.  Thank you.
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline fireman24mn

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2018, 09:25:33 AM »
When I did my 23 I had to add 4 layers of BSM mat (its a thicker stitched mat). That got me to the thickness I needed. If you look close you can see the layers of mat I added at the end. Make sure that the area between the new wood and the fiberglass transom are good and flat when I cut my exhaust holes I found some air pocket voids where the wood and the glass had a gap with nothing.

I think this has become an addiction.


1977 CV-23 I/O Being restored
1976 CV-23 Jet
1985 Pearson MotorYacht 43ft

Offline Green with Envy

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2018, 10:22:52 AM »
In the three I have done, the thickness tolerance is not crucial, to a point...

On a sterndrive, the gimbal halves are fastened to each other thru the transom with threaded studs/bolts.  There is enough thread remaining to account for a varying thickness transom.  The shaft slips in and out of the coupler.  There should be enough 'play' to account for a ⅜" difference in thickness without adjusting motor placement.

Outboard motors are similar with regard to hanging the motor.  The problem, I found out too late, was the splashwell on Project X.  It pushes up against the transom wood and shifts the positioning of the cap.  I was " off with cap placement and it affected one of the bulkheads up front.  I needed to make a minor adjustment for that.


Edit for clarity:

I agree that the thickness needs to be within a range, per Merc spec.  1.75" might be a little thin, and when you add glass and compress the wood layers, will that give you the " you desire to achieve a 2" nominal thickness?  Adding another layer of wood, even ", might be a healthy choice, plus your glass.

The shaft splines are 3" overall and more than 2.75" are engaged in the coupler in most cases.  With the tolerance of ⅛" to ⅜" difference in transom thickness, there is no chance of a failure due to inadequate spline engagement.  Thicker is better than thinner for obvious reasons, plus it would not be desirable to 'bottom out' the shaft in the coupler.

Since the rear bell housing mount to the inside gimbal half is absolute and is what actually locates the engine position bow to stern on the inside, the transom thickness is only crucial to your desired build technique and how you want to bring it back to factory (Merc) spec.  And, this is only if you are rebuilding stringers and not just the transom.  Shifting the engine will result in front mounts not lining up correctly.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 10:48:39 AM by Green with Envy »
1974 Glastron CV-16 SS
1975 Glastron GT150
1984 Searay Sundancer
1979 Glastron HPV-175

Offline thedeuceman

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2018, 10:40:06 AM »
my story on transoms FWIW
On our Balharbor i ground the resin plate off and used 2x 3/4 and it came out just under 2", i assembled that way and it did work but when i had the motor out to replace the flywheel i added a piece of 3/8" just to make sure it was correct.
as Shawn mentioned i also had a void on the lower part of the starboard side even though i felt i had it clamped properly with 2 layers of wet CSM. if/when i do another i will likely use a layer of cab to help make up for inconsistency's in the glass layer of the transom. (i assume that is why they had the resin plate in the first place)
the 1900 did not have the resin plate and the glass layer was much thicker and flatter than either the Balharbor or the GT.
Joe
75 GT-150, 73 Johnson 115 "Sea Deuce'd"
74 CV-16V8, Project
72 GT160, Looking for a new home

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2018, 08:47:36 AM »
      Tim and I were able to set and glass in the transom pieces.  Two layers of 3/4", one layer matt, two layers biax.   From a quick measurement it appears to be approximately 1.8" thick.  When all the clamps come off I'll take a few more measurements, and will need to add some thickness.   I believe some if this under thickness is accounted for by using 23/32" ply, so 1/16 off.   The area of the hull, port side, that was damaged has been restored, and the ring that holds the rub rail on has been fabricated.
  Stringers should be cut soon, but we are at a stopping point trying to determine the fuel tank that will be used.   The one that came out was an aftermarket hack job 55 gallon tank up front.   I also have a 62 gallon aluminum belly tank from the Baja that could be modified to work.   The original floor had a 3/4" center stringer which would have to be modified, shortened, or eliminated if we use a belly tank.   Some of the fuel weight would be shifted rearward using a belly tank over a front tank, but the weight would be carried lower, thereby lowering the center of gravity.  The only real downside is the fuel level indications from a belly tank are poor since the tank is rarely level in the water, and possibly structural strength might be lessened with the lack of full height center stringer.    The aluminum tank would need to be cut down, so overall capacity would be in the low 30's, which is probably better sized for this application.  Poly tanks are available for around $350 which might save some time.    Any opinions?  go with a standard CVX type tank or convert the Timi to a belly tank?
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline still_fishin

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2018, 09:06:21 PM »
      Tim and I were able to set and glass in the transom pieces.  Two layers of 3/4", one layer matt, two layers biax.   From a quick measurement it appears to be approximately 1.8" thick.  When all the clamps come off I'll take a few more measurements, and will need to add some thickness.   I believe some if this under thickness is accounted for by using 23/32" ply, so 1/16 off.   The area of the hull, port side, that was damaged has been restored, and the ring that holds the rub rail on has been fabricated.
  Stringers should be cut soon, but we are at a stopping point trying to determine the fuel tank that will be used.   The one that came out was an aftermarket hack job 55 gallon tank up front.   I also have a 62 gallon aluminum belly tank from the Baja that could be modified to work.   The original floor had a 3/4" center stringer which would have to be modified, shortened, or eliminated if we use a belly tank.   Some of the fuel weight would be shifted rearward using a belly tank over a front tank, but the weight would be carried lower, thereby lowering the center of gravity.  The only real downside is the fuel level indications from a belly tank are poor since the tank is rarely level in the water, and possibly structural strength might be lessened with the lack of full height center stringer.    The aluminum tank would need to be cut down, so overall capacity would be in the low 30's, which is probably better sized for this application.  Poly tanks are available for around $350 which might save some time.    Any opinions?  go with a standard CVX type tank or convert the Timi to a belly tank?
The only thing I did different from factory (referencing the stringers and tank) in my intimidator was to turn the tank 90 to gain storage on either side if the tank. I guess two things different. The second being the box/cradle I built to house the tank that also supports the front deck.  I just copied the one from my cvx18.

Now,  you are asking for an opinion......someone not to long ago taught me not to give my opinion, so i usually don't.....
 I'll give you my non-judgmental,  nonbias opinion. I wouldn't modify the center stinger for a belly tank. I know the cvz's have them along with the cv23's. They were also built designed that way.


Are you putting the floatation back on either side if the engine? If you are not that cold be a place for twin tanks.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

'86 CVX-18
'80 Intimidator

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Timi time
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2018, 09:26:46 PM »
Thanks for the reply Tim, I appreciate your opinion, advice, or criticism when it comes to boats.  Having two Timi's in your family also builds a lot of credibility.  Foam will be going back in the rear, plus I'm a bit scared to make the bow light/stern heavy with fuel tanks in rear.  Not going with a belly tank would save some time.  Still uncertain if I should buy new or reuse the 55 g tank.
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude