Author Topic: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20  (Read 4174 times)

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Offline Latemodel

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Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« on: October 14, 2018, 03:15:20 PM »
When I bought a CVX 20 with a jet drive recently (See new member posts for  more info)I was told by the person who was storing the boat (the owner had passed two years ago) that the owner had taken it out of storage about ten years ago and tried to service it, but soon brought it back because an expansion plug was leaking.  The price of the boat was too good to let a leaking frost plug get in the way so I pulled it home.  In the shop with better lighting I saw that changing an expansion plug wasn’t going to be a walk in the park. 
A water test of the cooling system showed massive leakage from both sides of the block.  Having known the owner for a number of years I couldn’t believe he got caught a water freezing episode, as he was very meticulous with his toys.   My son and I pulled the rear seat and he was able to get his arm in far enough in to diagnose an expansion plug on both sides with the complete centers rusted out.   In feeling around he stuck his finger though another plug!  At that point I knew the engine had to come out, even if the block wasn’t cracked, for further inspection and have brass or screw-in plugs installed.
Question 1.   The only Ford marine engine I ever rebuilt was last year and it was a 302 built in 1978.  As I remember it, this 302, (definitely a marine engine) did not have brass plugs either.  All marine GM 350 engines I worked on did.  Has anyone ever seen brass expansion plugs that looked original in a 460 or 302/289 Ford marine engine?
I have not pulled the engine yet and haven’t been able to see the block casting date and numbers, although they don’t always tell much.  I did scratch off some of the black paint, but there was no blue underneath it, indicating it was probably the original marine engine.     
 Question  2.  Does anyone know of any block numbers that were assigned to marine 460 engines, or know where they might be found in any reference material?  I have searched and have not had any luck.  I did check the intake manifold casting number and date code.  The manifold was cast in April of 1978, about right for a 79 boat, and the casting number is D0OE-9425-C.  That is for a 70-71 429SCJ Torino or 71 429 SCJ Mustang.   Again, there is no guarantee the manifold came out of those models, only that it was originally designed for them.   
I’m probably going to regret saying this, but the engine doesn’t look too hard to pull other than the engine mount bolts.   I’m open to any suggestions on making it quicker or easier.   Right now I am trying to decide if pulling the exhaust manifolds would open things up better.  I have some concern about snapping one of those long manifold bolts.
Don

Offline Hyperacme

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2018, 04:13:22 PM »
I'm not much on motors, and my memory is bad ..
But ..
They did Scott's 460 few years back and it was full of sand, which I think they thought was reason for overheating or rusted plugs.
They had some problem getting motor to separate from jet. Can't remember what it was but once they figured it out it came out with out any issues ..
Jason S. is the guy to talk to.
Some one with more knowledge will respond.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 06:26:47 PM by Hyperacme »

Offline Latemodel

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2018, 06:25:26 PM »
Gregg,

The comment on the sand is interesting.  When my son was checking the rusted plugs he said the block was full of sand and was able to get some sand and rusted parts of the plug out.
I suppose that if the sand built up high enough and covered the plugs even partially, that could accelerate rusting by holding moisture against the plug when the boat is out of water.
When the engine is on the engine stand I will be flushing the cooling system and get as much sand as possible out.

Don

Offline Hyperacme

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2018, 06:34:19 PM »
If I remember right, they had to take a piece of wire and dig it out.
It was packed in pretty tight.
They flushed it over a small kids wading pool, and bottom of pool was full of an amazing amount of sand.

Offline Glastronjohn18

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2018, 07:46:14 PM »
OK I'll try to pm him.
John
'80 CVX 18 - Survivor Class
'78 CVX 18
'76 V 225 -   Bal Harbor
'80 V195XL
'86 CVX 18- And '86 Makes 3

Offline Glastronjohn18

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2018, 07:50:47 PM »
Quote
Has anyone ever seen brass expansion plugs that looked original in a 460 or 302/289 Ford marine engine?

I have a 1976 marine 351W in my boat that has brass plugs that look original.

I PM you a link for the shop manual.

John
John
'80 CVX 18 - Survivor Class
'78 CVX 18
'76 V 225 -   Bal Harbor
'80 V195XL
'86 CVX 18- And '86 Makes 3

Offline Hyperacme

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2018, 08:05:49 PM »
Thanks John …
PM me to ..

Offline Jason

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2018, 08:10:39 PM »
I don’t think either of the two 460 engine we did had brass plugs. Must have been a Berkley thing. Brass plugs are available. I think Napa auto parts has them. Engine is not too hard to pull. Most cherry pickers can’t make the reach so a overhead hoist works better. The spline going into the engine is tricky. Trick is to lift up motor enough to remove both halves of motor mount on both sides of engine. Then lower motor so it’s sitting level. Then just yank it forward off the spline. I’ll have to see if I can find some pics.

That sounds like an original engine. The casting numbers on the head could be using older patterns as the 70 heads are about the best for performance on a 460. 78 smog heads wouldn’t be very desirable.
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2018, 08:26:34 AM »
I've seen blocks full of sand that after time and heating cycles turned almost into cement. Since the engine is coming out, it's a good time to look it over. 
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
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Offline Hyperacme

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2018, 09:27:49 AM »
I don't have pictures Jason, I know there were some …
Remember also that there were some problems with the plugs size.
Your next door neighbor came over and helped out with plugs.

Offline thedeuceman

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2018, 11:51:22 AM »
i seem to recall dealing with the sand issue when we pulled the BBF out of Shawn's 23 to swap the oil pan.
i dont recall what we used for plugs or what came out.
Joe
75 GT150 "SeaDeuced"... Its Back !!
92 16CSS "Attitude Adjustment" is for sale
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Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2018, 12:03:28 PM »
I purchased a full new brass plug set for my BBC from Summit.  If you plan to tear down and inspect, you'll need a gasket set as well.
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline Latemodel

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2018, 07:31:47 PM »
Thanks for all the info. 
I do have a 1.5 ton electric hoist in my shop and a engine leveler to level the engine as needed.  It looks like I am going to pull it on Thursday. 
As for the plugs, I went out and checked a 302 marine I have out back waiting to go to the scrap yard.  It has stainless steel expansion plugs and they look original.  That engine was mated to a Volvo out-drive by a company called Interceptor, (not Interceptor boats) and had a 1968 date code. 
It appears that we have a 351 with brass plugs, a number of 460's with steel, a 302 with stainless, and the last 302 I did with steel.  I think Jason is right; it's a decision by whoever buys the engine from Ford.  There are probably different price levels. 
Dorman has a brass set for the 460, Part Number 567-026.   The depth of the cups is .220”.  I will buy them after I get the old plugs out and see if the depth looks the same.  I usually use Permatex No.1  to seal cup type plugs in.
As for getting sand out of the block I have used an air chisel with the blade cut off the tool for getting casting sand out.  Banging on the outside will usually loosen it.   
I didn’t plan on tearing the engine down unless a leak down test on the rings shows a problem.  I am also going to pull the rocker covers to see if it has the SJC valve gear that marine 460’s are supposed  have. 
Then it’s going to be replacing all the rubber hoses and generally clean up and detail the engine.
I will drain the oil and change the filter and then pressurize the fresh oil in with a pressure tank, but that will probably wait until just before I re-install the engine this Spring.   
Again, I appreciate everyone‘s help.   
Don

Offline Jason

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2018, 10:10:09 PM »
I don't have pictures Jason, I know there were some …
Remember also that there were some problems with the plugs size.
Your next door neighbor came over and helped out with plugs.

That’s right. Think it was the small ones in the head and was just getting them out.
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O

Offline cv-19

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2018, 09:43:36 AM »

 The engine comes out best by not raising it much past the motor mounts
    so not to have a lot of angle on the shaft spline, then push  the motor forwards.

Offline Latemodel

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2018, 10:43:50 AM »
We pulled the engine on Thursday.  It took about three hours, including lunch and the usual trying something that didn’t work, and then trying something different.
There were two big hang ups.  The first was getting the engine mounts disconnected from the engine.  We tried a number of things to get the mounts loose, but between the exhaust manifolds and the ¼ inch plywood bulkheads on either side we couldn’t even get a good look at them let alone get wrenches in there.  We had the rear seat out, but that still didn’t allow decent access.  Idea number one was to pull the plywood , but it was tabbed in and would be a job to redo.  Idea two was to cut access doors into the plywood.  I really didn’t want o do that to an all original boat.  Looking back, maybe I should have.
Idea three was to pull the exhaust manifolds.  We tried a couple of the long bolts and they came out easily, but we couldn’t get the bolts backed out because they hit the bulkheads.   Luckily there was enough room to roll the manifolds and the bolts dropped out into the bilge.
Now we could finally get a look at the mounts.  Each mount has three parts or brackets.  The bottom bracket is bolted to the engine mounting rails with four bolts going through the rail, and a backing plate for the nuts.  This bracket has two vertical flanges.   The intermediate bracket also has two vertical flanges that index with the lower bracket.  Two through bolts and spacers hold the two together.   There are slots in the intermediate bracket to allow the engine to be centered in the boat.  The upper engine bracket has the rubber vibration absorber and has two vertical flanges to index with the intermediate bracket.  They are held together with two bolts, spacers and heavy washers.  The engine bracket is bolted to the engine with three bolts and one of them is all but impossible to remove.   In fact unless you have worked on a 460 before, you probably wouldn’t find it until the engine was out.  Now that I know where it is I think I could make a wrench that would remove it, but I don’t know if I could it back in position and get it started.   I have some ideas how it could be done and I’ll post them later if they work.
That led to the second problem. If you don’t disconnect the engine from the top bracket and instead you remove the lower bolts, you still have to raise the engine two or three inches to clear the mount below.  We removed the top two bolts on both the engine brackets and gave a light pull up and it was obvious something was still holding the brackets on, so we removed the four bolts holding the engine bracket s to the intermediate bracket.  Now we could lift the engine, but when we got above the intermediate mount far enough to slide the engine ahead and disconnect from the jet the spline locked up.  More bad language. >:(  Finally we realized we were little higher than we needed and when we lowered it to just touching the top of the intermediate with the engine bracket and pushed the engine forward with a little help from a 2X4, we got it loose.  We don’t think this is going to work for realigning the engine with the jet shaft when the engine goes back in.  As a number of you told me, the engine has to be pretty much at its original height as it is pulled out or installed onto the shaft. 
After we got the engine out and found the hidden bolt, the only way that we felt that the engine could be removed was to either pull the lower bracket bolts holding the bracket to the rails, or getting all three bolts out of the engine bracket.  Either one of those would allow the engine to slide forward after a slight lift.  I don’t know if you would have access to the bolts through the rail with the engine in.  That leaves getting the hidden bolt out of the engine bracket.   Once I get the engine back in I’ll see if it’s possible get to either of them now that I know where they are.

Don
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 10:47:38 AM by Latemodel »

Offline Jason

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Re: Changing frost plugs in a CVX20
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2018, 01:32:18 PM »
That’s what I remember. Removing the engine and possibly the middle bracket. The part that connects to wood stays there. It was really tight but I remember making the long reach to remove all 3 engine bolts. Glad you got it out!
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O