Minnesota Classic Glastron Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: 17ireid on May 26, 2015, 01:08:17 PM
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Hi,
I have a CVX 16 yet to hit the water, probably be ready this summer. I am working on purchasing a 1978 Mercury 115hp for it and I'm looking for a prop to put on it. I am mostly interested in top end speed and cruising fast comfortably without chine walk or torque steer. Hole shot, and pulling power is not a concern at all. I don't have a jacking plate and I'm thinking a chopper prop would be the way I'd go, correct me if Im wrong. Any specific model, or blade number, diameter, and pitch suggestions would be great. Thanks!
Isaiah
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Probably a 22" pitch Mercury Quicksilver chopper 13" in diameter. I sold one years ago without trying it. Next I would try a Laser II 22" pitch. I have for sale a new 22" pitch Mercury Quicksilver 2-blade bronze 13" diameter that I have never used, so I do not know how it performs.
An OMC SRX 23" pitch prop rehubbed for a Mercury might be faster than a chopper.
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/bpo/5036462659.html (http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/bpo/5036462659.html)
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First things first.
Get either duel helm steering, or hydraulic steering and solid mounts.
Props you can play with, but Mercs will chine walk, and get it up so you don't need to worry about torque steer.
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Any outboard motor with 115 hp or more will chine walk on a cvx16 or cv16, not just the mercs alone. It's all about the set up. Splash well mounted steering systems will produce steering torque from just about any motor at top speeds in stock form.
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In my opinion, for a 115 HP outboard on a CVX, duel steering, solid mounts, and raising the motor are all unnecessary. Nice, but not needed. My CVX with a 115 HP Johnson at 58.8 MPH is stable, no chine walk, very controllable in rough water, and the Teleflex no-feed-back steering has no pull to the right or left in the steering wheel.
All this changes as the horsepower increases to 200 HP and speed to 65+ MPH.
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My CVX16 w/115 Merc ran 54 MPH and had zero chine walk. That boat was completely effortless to drive at that speed & steady as a rock. A chopper prop is a surface piercing prop and completely the wrong prop for your boat in stock form. Just throw on a 3 blade SS Laser II/Lightspeed(same prop) and that will get you about 98-99% of the way there where top speed is concerned.
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Most outboards have a trim limit, I have mine bypassed so I can trim a little further to squeeze out a couple more mph with the motor sitting on the transom. The trim limit is there to help ppl not get out of control with chine walking on stock set ups.
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Back to the question, 21 pitch or 22 pitch stainless steel.
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The motor in question is a 1978 115 HP Mercury. I believe that year the horsepower rating was still at the power head. And the RPM redline was 5,300 to 5,500. It would be a toss up between a 20 or 22 inch pitch prop. Both the Laser II's and Choppers come in even numbered pitches. Real life testing is the answer.
With my CVX-16, I tested both a 20 and 22 inch Raker. Both were within the max RPM limit (5,500 to 5,700), but the 22 inch was faster. I attributed it to the HP peak on my 115 HP Johnson engine at 5,000 RPM. The 23 inch SRX runs about the same RPM as the 22 inch Raker, probably because of more slippage.
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I would skip the older Merc and get a newer (1986 and above, I think) Merc or J/E.
The Merc's (after 1986) had prop rated HP, electronic ignitions, T&T built into the transom assembly.
Other members can help you with the best year J/E motors, but I think there HP rating changed from Power head to prop about the same time as Merc's.
With the older Merc your going to need a jack plate to lift your motor, because of the external T&T cyl. and clamp system.
You want to "Think through" your steering option before you do any thing ... What system do you have now ? ... Where is the cable coming out of your splash well ? ... Where will it connect to motor if lifted with or with out a jack plate ?
NFB will work well but you can't lift motor with out mod's to your splash well.
Hydraulic will work with any thing but costs $600.
If you go with the 1978 Merc, try a Lazer II in 20P or 22P ... The 22P worked the best for my set up, out of a bunch of props I've tried.
Hard to say what will work best for your set up, but you can find Lazer's on Craigslist for $150 to $200, and would be a good starting point.
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Or you can convert it to short shaft, with Tilt Trim, like I did. I have over $8,000 in this one.
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh181/50sflash/DSC01357Large.jpg)
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You just need a sticker upgrade Jerry ...
MERCURY MARINE 1500 XS DECALS
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCURY-MARINE-1500-XS-DECALS-MERC-OUTBOARD-/310346693247 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCURY-MARINE-1500-XS-DECALS-MERC-OUTBOARD-/310346693247)
(http://i7.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/85/3f/d87b_12.JPG)
(http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26334&stc=1&d=1220721619)
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First I need the wrap. Jerry Sellner has one I want it!
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YA ... Putting louver's in a stock wrap might not be easy, if even doable ...
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Thanks for all the great information and suggestions, the outboard Im looking at came off of another CVX 16 and is a 20" shaft and tilt/trim, so I think as far as jacking plates go, I might be okay. Also as far as getting an 86 model there are some pretty slim pickings up in Maine as far as Mercs are concerned and this engine seems to be a really good deal.
I have the original rack and pinion steering. And the splash well mount is a 15ยบ mount. As I am running a setup of what my boat was stock, is hydraulic or double steering going to be necessary? I'm not looking to set speed records, I'm just looking to get the most stock speed potential out of my setup, as I plan to spend a lot of time cruising fast in upper 40's low 50's on some long straight river runs while maintaining close to top speeds. Instead of driving WOT all the time with a acceleration/torque orientated prop and getting mid 40's (Just guessing on the speeds here). Also, Chopper props just look awesome!
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A NFB system will work fine with the 78 Merc.
Take as much "Slop" out of connections (steering cable to motor) as you can.
You have a tach ?
The Lazer II will be your best starting point.
Hard to say if a 20P or 22P will work best, you will have to try both to know for sure.
Some other brand / model / style might work better, but you don't know until you try them.
My CV with motor (prop rated 115 HP) all the way down on transom, 20P Lazer II, medium load of fuel and just me in the boat, got 50 mph/GPS.
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It won't hurt anything to run a chopper. You just won't get the full benefit. As their designed to be semi-surfacing.
I ran a 90 Evinrude mounted as high as it would go on my 153. Best top speed with a 13 3/4 x 23 OMC SRX chopper was 54.8. It'd run about 2 mph slower with a 13 1/2 x 22 Lightspeed.
If memory serves me correctly RPMs were 6100 and 5900 respectively.
Only time I got a high temp alarm was running really hard for an extended time on a really hot day.
I'd imagine you ought to be able to swing either prop.
If you like the looks of choppers you'll love this: 30p Ron Hill Signature.
Here's a motor height chart too:
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I don't have a tachometer, just fuel and speed the bare essentials haha. I do have a trim but I didn't get a tach or use the trim because I wasn't sure it was easily compatible with the Suzuki I've been working on since they are the original Mercury Quicksilver gauges. But I'm selling it because the parts are too expensive $500 for a High Pressure pump for instance. Also that is a super nice prop, I really like Cleavers but I think that would be less than ideal for my CVX. Also sounds like majority says the Lazer II is a safe good option I will definitely look into that.
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You need to decide if you want to go fast, or half fast. If you want to go fast you need to do what I suggested. if half fast David's your guy.
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Ha ha ha!
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Jerry
Both you and David are running 16ft boats yours being a v hull with no pad and a 115hp mercury with a short shaft, and Davids with a Johnson 115hp with a long shaft how do they compare in speeds the v hull vs the pad?
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Jerry's bow rides too low in the water limiting his top speed. There are several ideas how to lift the bow, but no testing so far.
The best comparison in our group would be Gregg's CV-16 with a 1990 Mariner 115 HP, and Steve A.'s CV-16 with a 1987 115 HP Mercury. The CV-16's are about 650 pounds and my CVX is 750 pounds. My 1985 Johnson 115 HP is rated at the propshaft, as are Gregg's and Steve's.
Gregg runs a 22" Laser II, Steve a Rapture 21", and I run a SRX 23"
Believe Gregg runs 54+ MPH, Steve about 57, and myself at 58+
The boats and motors could all be adjusted to get more speed, but I believe we (speaking for Steve and Gregg) are content to leave motor height, props, hop up as it is.
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I guess I'll have to go half fast Jerry. I wish I could do all that you said, but I'm 16 so I'm pretty broke haha!
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That's great. You will get some good experience. The extra things are more for safety than anything. Enjoy what you have.
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" Believe Gregg runs 54+ MPH, Steve about 57, and myself at 58+ "
That looks bad ... I gotta ... UP MY GAME !
Dave and I tested a bunch of props on my boat and the second best, maybe even a tie for best was the two blade bronze 21P.
Top speed was with in a few tenths of the Lazer, torque steer was very low, no chime walk and a very smooth feel / ride.
RPM's were a bit high for my motor, which has a 5250 rpm limit.
The prop he has pictured at beginning of thread had a bad hub, so didn't get tested, hope to try it this summer ...
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I kind of just hope my boat just doesn't sink at the mooring, let alone get into the 50's XD
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nothing wrong with "half fast"...
it's all in what you want.
My GT-150 has a totally different hull than yer CVX, the GT has no pad and runs vary wet (sticks down in the water)
it has a 72 Johnson 115 (prop rated), 20" raker ss prop, mounted 1 hole up, old sloppy steering system.
I have hit 50 with it, but it runs really nice with 2 people and gear at 43 to 45 mph/5100 rpm, trimmed about half way.
stable, minimal torque steer, basically effortless and fun to run like that.
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Your 16 and have a boat! That's pretty cool. Now that you mention sinking, one of the smartest things you can do to your CVX16 is install an automatic bilge pump.
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Lmao! Come on Jerry, what's your best top speed with your new rig??? Haven't seen any numbers yet!
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Still working on it. It's tough when it's just the two of us, and I don't move real well.
The trim limit has had problems, and I have had all the wrong props. Hopefully I have that problen solved and can get the bow out of the water.
I built this to challenge David's old boat with the Merc, not his new one.
Time will tell.
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My new nickname "Half fast David"
I like it.
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Don't know about that Dave ...
59 mph/GPS with a basically stock set up is pretty DARN FAST in my book !
If I didn't know you, and you posted your set up and speed ... I would think you were a BSer ... or wishful thinker ...
I have done all the set up tricks ... and can't even hit 55 mph !
Maybe the Rapture 21P is the key ...
Hay Steve .. ya ever been to WBL ? ... LOL
17ireid ...
Even with a power head rated motor and an aluminum prop you should be able to get very close to or a little above 50 mph.
Bet you'll still have fun, even if your only getting high 40's ...
Any pictures of your CVX ?
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Sorry. Half-fast don't work for me. It's all or nothing. Granpappy Jack liked to say, "Go fast or go home ..."
Shooting for at least 65 Sunday. And I don't think that's overly optimistic.
Gregg you haven't done all the tricks yet. You still have room to raise that motor.
And David ... ehh nevermind. Heh heh heh
edit. Yo 17 I'm 54 and I'm still broke. It don't get any better. But it is better when you have a boat. Specially a cool one.
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edit. Yo 17 I'm 54 and I'm still broke. It don't get any better. But it is better when you have a boat. Specially a cool one.
yep, Doug is right on the money there! LOL
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Very punny Brandon ...
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Makes cents to me.
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Uggh! If I hear one more bad joke on this forum, besides my own ... I'm cancelling my membership
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Remember, I am only at half speed.
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(Greg) No I haven't been to WBL, always hear bad stories about rock piles. (David) half speed, lol. That was a good one. So if you pushed the throttle the rest of the way you should be able to do 116mph.
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There's a difference between "half speed" and "half fast" you can be at full speed, and still only be half fast.
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And vice versa ...
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Yeah I think low 50's would make me happy, if not terrified. Never been that fast in a boat before. However 55 would be nice so I could beat some cars on the highways along the coast. I was just trying to get the most potential out of what I have and not waste power on torque and acceleration figures, when it's not what I really need. I will try to upload some pictures, it's in mid painting sort of. I finished but then there were micro scratches everywhere from wet-sanding and and I dont want to wet-sand more and wear through. Going to do a few more coats with a slightly darker red (Regal Red) and thin as much as I can. Then put it all back together. Will update then too. I attached a photo I don't know if it worked.
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Sorry meant to use this picture, also yes it does have bottom paint it was and will be used in the ocean. See how that works out, definitely will be the only one in the region, probably for a reason.
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Steve ...
Straight out from boat launch on WBL is an island, which we take a wide birth of, believe the "rock piles" are around that area.
It's a good lake for prop testing on a week day.
Dave & Doug ...
Guess that make's me " 3/4 Fast " ... LOL
When I mounted motor, I wasn't sure about water pressure and thought one hole from top would be a safe starting point.
17ireid ...
Nice thing about outboards is you can fairly easily change motors ... Do what you can afford now ... you can change your set up latter as your boating budget increases.
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Yeah I think low 50's would make me happy, if not terrified. Never been that fast in a boat before. However 55 would be nice so I could beat some cars on the highways along the coast. I was just trying to get the most potential out of what I have and not waste power on torque and acceleration figures, when it's not what I really need. I will try to upload some pictures, it's in mid painting sort of. I finished but then there were micro scratches everywhere from wet-sanding and and I dont want to wet-sand more and wear through. Going to do a few more coats with a slightly darker red (Regal Red) and thin as much as I can. Then put it all back together. Will update then too. I attached a photo I don't know if it worked.
A few tips from someone who has had his CVX16 a while. In my hull's first few months with me upper 40's was about it and in a way that was good. There is a HUGE difference between running mid to upper 40's in this hull and running mid 50's. A lot of learning how to drive fast needs to sink in before you get a serious crack at dangerous speeds. And I mean dangerous. Stuff goes south quick the faster you go and our bodies aren't designed for water contact at the velocity you are looking at. In my opinion get used to your hull in the conditions you plan on using it in before you attempt to see how fast you can go.
My CVX16 with a 100HP Johnson hit 56.0 at it's fastest before I hurt the motor. (by the way I'll have $2000 in that "new" motor next time I buy something for the rebuild) For the best control at any speed and especially at anything above 48 the motor needs to be high. A lot higher than you would think is good enough. Speed comes from less resistance in the water. Mine started too deep and even with my 6" setback jack-plate I have yet to get it so high that I loose water pressure. A good friend of mine has a 150HP Evinrude eTec on his CVX16 and spinning a 14.5x24 OMC Raker and up about mid way on a 4" setback jack-plate we saw a very controlled 62MPH with a fair amount left in it. Using more prop pitch actually was less stable. No jack plate and at 1 hole up on the transom even braking 60 was a problem. If that isn't evidence that a low mounted motor can't get this hull to break 60 I don't what is. I am still convinced I could drive his boat to the upper 60's with ease and safely.
Now onto making your hull look good. Wet sanding mine and using very good buffing and wax products helped bring mine back close to looking new.
Finally boating is what is is all about. Having the boat is the thing. What it looks like and how fast it can go is really secondary. Be safe and have fun.
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Still working on it. It's tough when it's just the two of us, and I don't move real well.
Jerry,
I'm available almost anytime, and would gladly help you play with props.
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Thanks Jim. I may take you up on that. I have so much else going on right now.