Minnesota Classic Glastron Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Neutron68 on July 06, 2014, 10:51:29 PM
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After all the exploratory disassembly, fixes and improvements, I finally got a chance to take the boat out this weekend.
The engine started easily, ran smoothly and had plenty of take off power. I put on a vintage 15 x 17 prop this winter.
The depth/fish finder works great. I didn't see any problems with the sounder location.
After the engine warmed up, the temperature gauge held steady at 150F. I ran it wide open throttle (WOT) for about 30 seconds last night before sundown and the temperature never went higher than 150F.
During the WOT run, the boat came up on plain and gave me 4000 RPM with the 15 x 17 prop I put on this winter.
It falls in the range recommended for a 120 in the 1978 Mercruiser manual, so I think I'm in good shape.
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab264/neutron68/Glastron/20131005_110143_resized_zps24f7846a.jpg)
One thing that bothers me is the crack in the lower unit case. It seems to be seeping oil. In August 2013, I asked the In Tune Marine guys to CAREFULLY look at that and fix/weld that crack if it was shown to leak oil. They didn't do anything with the crack. I'm really annoyed to see it leaking after asking for it to be examined and fixed. :(
Any advice for that crack? Can it be welded?
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab264/neutron68/20140706_093921_zps2b3a6b5b.jpg)
I noted what I thought was odd behavior of the alternator. The alternator doesn't seem to charge the battery (Voltmeter reads 12V right after startup) until you get the throttle above about 1200 RPM. At that point, the Voltmeter goes up to 14V. After it gets up to 14V, it stays there, even if the throttle is dropped back to idle.
Is that normal behavior for a 1978 Mercruiser 120 alternator?
Eric
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Aluminum can be welded, but of coarse drain the lower unit grease and apply wet cold rags to the surrounding areas. An experienced welding shop will know the correct procedure.
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Good job! I used to run my 120 WOT up to 4600 rpm with a 21p stainless prop topping out around 40 mph. Judging from what I see of your numbers of 4000 rpm with a 17p I don't think you're going to swing a 21p prop. What kind of speed were you getting at 4000 rpm? Is that with the drive trimmed all the way down or out just a bit?
Where's the crack in the gearcase?
I've seen alternators so that before. Seems like they kick in after a certain rpm. I'm not sure if that's normal or indicative of a bad internal connection that catches hold once it gets going. Perhaps a little WD40 sprayed into the alternator can help clear up the contacts.
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That alternator reaction is normal. DON'T SPRAY ANYTHING IN THE ALTERNATOR!!!
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That alternator reaction is normal. DON'T SPRAY ANYTHING IN THE ALTERNATOR!!!
Why not Jerry? You've made a statement so how's about an explanation? I've never had a problem with spraying WD40 into an alternator. It's part of most I/O winterizing procedures.
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Here's a photo with the leaking crack highlighted.
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab264/neutron68/Glastron/20140706_093921_crack_zps86b19266.jpg)
I'm sorry to say, I didn't note the speed when I got up to 4000 RPM. About that time, I got distracted with waves ahead and other boat traffic. I'll pay attention next time. I'll note the GPS speed, and the speedo.
I had the trim all the way down, I believe...maybe pitched down too much?
The 15 x 17 I have on is the prop on the left.
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab264/neutron68/Glastron/20130916_195426_zps03c671dc.jpg)
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Oh ok, I see the crack now. That crack should have been fixed, don't know how it could be overlooked. Not only is it a place for oil to escape it's also a place where water can get into the drive.
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From these cutaway photos, it looks like the main drive shaft is right behind that crack.
Should oil be coming out the weep hole towards the leading edge of the lower unit? (as it appears?)
Should I be looking for a used Mercruiser lower unit to replace this cracked one? (anyone got one to sell?)
(http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2265/gearhousingcutaway.jpg)
(http://www.baylinerownersclub.org/media/kunena/attachments/22905/20140404_133551.jpg)
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Oil coming from the forward weep hole indicates the shift rod seal/bushing (part #19 in your parts breakdown above) is bad and should be replaced. But most repair shops would agree the gearcase should be replaced because of the crack. If it can be repaired by a welding shop and done cheaply I'd say try it otherwise I'd be looking for a replacement lower unit. A crack like that seems to me was caused by water in the gearcase that froze.
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I reviewed the repair invoice from September 2013...
The inspection section says:
PERFORM MOTOR INSPECTION (added after initial post)
OIL DRIPPING FROM LOWER UNIT (added after initial post)
LOWER UNIT HAS CRACK IN IT (added after initial post)
PRESSURE TESTED DRIVE - DOES NOT HOLD PRESSURE
The Drive Reseal section says:
INSTALL NEW WATER PUMP IMPELLER (Sierra Impeller)
RESEALED UPPER AND LOWER STERN DRIVE
INSTALLED NEW WATER PUMP IMPELLER
PRESSURE AND VACUUM TESTED GEARCASE - HELD 10 PSI
FILLED WITH FRESH GEAR LUBE
I can't understand how the gearcase DIDN'T leak with 10 PSI of pressure.
It's currently leaking with just gravity!
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Has that crack always been there since you've owned the boat? Almost sounds like someone is passing the buck. :o
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Yes, that crack was there when I bought the boat in June 2013. But, I didn't notice it until 1 month later when I started looking for the source of the oil leak, that I spotted once I got the boat up on the boat lift in July 2013.
I SPECIFICALLY asked In Tune Marine to check out and weld that crack in August 2013.
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My original outdrive on my Z must have been left up, filled with rain or snow, froze, and cracked a 3" split alongside the reverse bearing carrier. I thought about welding mine, but taking measurements indicates that the lower gearcase has been deformed. I may still weld mine up, I need to check some clearances closer. As for your drive, it appears to also been caused by water freezing, and likely if water got in the oil, even more damage could be present. Two ideas come to mind. Fully dissamble the lower half, figure out what is good/bad, asses the direction you need to proceed, then weld up the crack, reaasemble. 2nd idea would be to drain the lube, clean out the cracked area with acetone, carb cleaner, or brakekleen, the use JB weld to seal the crack. I know its not the best method, but if the bearings and/or gears are bad, and the housing is cracked, your likely looking at a new unit anyway. Best price Ive seen on a empty bottom half was $550.00(OEM, not aftermarket). Could give ya some time, outdrives can be easier and cheaper come fall after season. Best of luck, Michael.
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I just noticed some text from the repair invoice that I missed.
I just went back and added it to the message a few posts back...
PERFORM MOTOR INSPECTION
OIL DRIPPING FROM LOWER UNIT
LOWER UNIT HAS CRACK IN IT
So, the repair shop was fully aware of the crack and my desire to fix the oil leak...just didn't do anything about it.
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Been a few members that have had good luck with SEI.
http://www.sterndrive.cc/product/Fits-Mercruiser-Gen-I-Lower-8951A43.html (http://www.sterndrive.cc/product/Fits-Mercruiser-Gen-I-Lower-8951A43.html)
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Opinions?
Pre-Alpha, no cracks - from Mercruiser 260:
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/boa/4505921783.html (http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/boa/4505921783.html)
This guy says he has pre-Alpha stern drive parts.
http://mankato.craigslist.org/for/4480960911.html (http://mankato.craigslist.org/for/4480960911.html)
Pre-Alpha, but from a 305 V8 - compatible??
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/boa/4528448117.html (http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/boa/4528448117.html)
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Your gear ratio will be wrong if you put on a complete outdrive from a V8...no bueno.
What about that guy Jeff used in the TC's when his outdrive blew up?
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Your gear ratio will be wrong if you put on a complete outdrive from a V8...no bueno.
Gotcha...305 V8 drive, not compatible.
How about the Pre-Alpha, no cracks - from Mercruiser 260:
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/boa/4505921783.html (http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/boa/4505921783.html)
What about that guy Jeff used in the TC's when his outdrive blew up?
Not sure what you mean. Maybe this question was for the group?
Eric
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Your gear ratio will be wrong if you put on a complete outdrive from a V8...no bueno.
What about that guy Jeff used in the TC's when his outdrive blew up?
Jeff and I both replaced are entire outdrive last summer with a brand new SEI. So far so good. My brother also replaced his lower with an SEI about 5 years ago and has not had any issues.
http://www.sterndrive.cc/Mercruiser-Alpha-One-Gen-I-Lower-Only.html (http://www.sterndrive.cc/Mercruiser-Alpha-One-Gen-I-Lower-Only.html)
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What about that guy Jeff used in the TC's when his outdrive blew up?
Not sure what you mean. Maybe this question was for the group?
Eric
[/quote]
Yes, there is a guy that rebuilds outdrives in the TC's somewhere in the Minnetonka area (I think) that has been used by members in the past...I remember Jeff blew up his outdrive and had a replacement the next day.
I don't have the contact info, but he has been used by members of the club.
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V-8 out drives are generally a 1.5/1.47 ratio, whereas the 4 cylinders used a 1.98 ratio. There should be plenty of 1.98 alpha's and pre alpha's available for roughly $500.
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http://www.sterndrive.cc/Mercruiser-Alpha-One-Gen-I-Lower-Only.html (http://www.sterndrive.cc/Mercruiser-Alpha-One-Gen-I-Lower-Only.html)
This SEI says it's an Alpha One Gen 1 replacement.
I've got a Pre-Alpha or 120 drive.
Do they make pre-Alpha replacements?
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V-8 out drives are generally a 1.5/1.47 ratio, whereas the 4 cylinders used a 1.98 ratio. There should be plenty of 1.98 alpha's and pre alpha's available for roughly $500.
Oh yeah, a 165 has a different gear ration than a 120.
Can my gears be moved over to another lower unit?
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab264/neutron68/Glastron/20131005_110143_resized_zps24f7846a.jpg)
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You don't need to swap the whole drive. Even if you picked up a drive with a ratio for a V8 the lower half will still work - all the lower units are the same.
I just picked up TODAY a used Alpha lower gearcase. It may be available for sale once I give it a look over.
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This page lists the differences between Alpha lower units and pre-Alpha lower units.
https://plus22.safe-order.net/mercstuff/drive_idprealpha.htm
My Conclusion: I can't use an Alpha lower unit with my pre-Alpha drive unit.
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You read that wrong, you CAN use an Alpha lower on a pre-Alpha upper. Look right under the picture for pre-Alpha Upper Housing.
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You read that wrong, you CAN use an Alpha lower on a pre-Alpha upper. Look right under the picture for pre-Alpha Upper Housing.
Ah, I see it now!
And, you say that lower units are all geared the same, so I could buy any Alpha outdrive or any pre-Alpha outdrive, and as long as I only use the lower unit from it, I'm ok.
So, I could buy the outdrive for the 305 V8 and as long as I only use the lower unit from it, right?
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And, you say that lower units are all geared the same, so I could buy any Alpha outdrive or any pre-Alpha outdrive, and as long as I only use the lower unit from it, I'm ok.
So, I could buy the outdrive for the 305 V8 and as long as I only use the lower unit from it, right?
Yes. In fact on the SEI site their "Alpha" lower unit replacements are listed for 1972-1990 drives.
The one shown for the 305 looks like it had a skeg replacement too, that's an Alpha One Gen II replacement skeg. Mercury doesn't sell a replacement skeg for the Gen I Alpha.
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Here is the guy Doran was talking about. I forgot he replaced his outdrive twice!
http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=306.0 (http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=306.0)
When I destroyed my upper gears it was just a little bit more to buy a new SEI over having my old one rebuilt. I did have Dan reseal the lower unit on my 140 though.
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oh yea, for the record, the lower unit on my brothers boat is mounted to a pre-alpha drive.
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Here's the Alpha lower I got today. A friend gave it to me to sell for him. It looks to have been cleaned up and repainted, the forward and reverse gears feel fine and it shifts properly. There are a few dings and scrapes in the front edge of the skeg and the water pump impeller should probably be replaced.
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Your gear ratio will be wrong if you put on a complete outdrive from a V8...no bueno.
What about that guy Jeff used in the TC's when his outdrive blew up?
Jeff and I both replaced are entire outdrive last summer with a brand new SEI. So far so good. My brother also replaced his lower with an SEI about 5 years ago and has not had any issues.
http://www.sterndrive.cc/Mercruiser-Alpha-One-Gen-I-Lower-Only.html (http://www.sterndrive.cc/Mercruiser-Alpha-One-Gen-I-Lower-Only.html)
Jason, I saw a lot of those units on ebay, are they Chinese units? I was just curious, because I have thought about one, if this gen 2 doesn't work out for me
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Not Chinese...they're out of Florida, have a nice warranty, and are generally a high quality replacement at a more palatable price.
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Built in Florida with "globally sourced" parts. Do your homework on them if you want but they are reversed engineered mercruisers and many will say stronger. Older models had paint issues but that's been resolved. They have a louder wine when cruising but that is suppose to disparate over time. Have a 3 year warranty too. I have not seen any complaints about reliability.
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Not Chinese...they're out of Florida, have a nice warranty, and are generally a high quality replacement at a more palatable price.
thanks for the info, and I read that they have a 3 year warranty, and the price is right :) I will remember this company
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Built in Florida with "globally sourced" parts. Do your homework on them if you want but they are reversed engineered mercruisers and many will say stronger. Older models had paint issues but that's been resolved. They have a louder wine when cruising but that is suppose to disparate over time. Have a 3 year warranty too. I have not seen any complaints about reliability.
Thanks Jason for the info
I will consider one of these units, if I need to replace mine, good to know that someone has experience with them
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Been a few members that have had good luck with SEI.
http://www.sterndrive.cc/product/Fits-Mercruiser-Gen-I-Lower-8951A43.html (http://www.sterndrive.cc/product/Fits-Mercruiser-Gen-I-Lower-8951A43.html)
Any idea if shipping costs are rolled into that $750 price? If not, what is the shipping cost to Minnesota?
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Here is the guy Doran was talking about. I forgot he replaced his outdrive twice!
http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=306.0 (http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=306.0)
When I destroyed my upper gears it was just a little bit more to buy a new SEI over having my old one rebuilt. I did have Dan reseal the lower unit on my 140 though.
Quoted from other thread...
Daniel Luke
Merc Stern Drive Repair
20 years Exp.
Located in Excelsior, MN
Dan - 952-474-7352.
I'll give him a call and see if he thinks my lower unit can be successfully welded.
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Here is the guy Doran was talking about. I forgot he replaced his outdrive twice!
http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=306.0 (http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=306.0)
When I destroyed my upper gears it was just a little bit more to buy a new SEI over having my old one rebuilt. I did have Dan reseal the lower unit on my 140 though.
Quoted from other thread...
Daniel Luke
Merc Stern Drive Repair
20 years Exp.
Located in Excelsior, MN
Dan - 952-474-7352.
I'll give him a call and see if he thinks my lower unit can be successfully welded.
Dan does not like SEI so don't mention it to him!! I think SEI has come a long way since Dan has worked with them though.
It does not matter who you buy your SEI from so long as it's new and you register it, SEI will warranty it. I ended up getting mine through a guy on ebay for a $100 less than from SEI directly.
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I still don't know what SEI charges to ship.
The new SEI lower units on Ebay right now are the same price as SEI.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Replacement-Lower-Unit-Gearcase-For-Mercruiser-Alpha-Gen-1-Pre-Alpha-Outdrives-/331229243438 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Replacement-Lower-Unit-Gearcase-For-Mercruiser-Alpha-Gen-1-Pre-Alpha-Outdrives-/331229243438)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercruiser-Alpha-one-Gen-1-Lower-Unit-Replacement-90-106-02-SE106-drive-8951A43-/400132606149 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercruiser-Alpha-one-Gen-1-Lower-Unit-Replacement-90-106-02-SE106-drive-8951A43-/400132606149)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercruiser-Alpha-one-Gen-1-Standard-Rotation-RH-Replacement-Lower-Unit-/281237431196 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercruiser-Alpha-one-Gen-1-Standard-Rotation-RH-Replacement-Lower-Unit-/281237431196)
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I still don't know what SEI charges to ship.
The new SEI lower units on Ebay right now are the same price as SEI.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Replacement-Lower-Unit-Gearcase-For-Mercruiser-Alpha-Gen-1-Pre-Alpha-Outdrives-/331229243438 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Replacement-Lower-Unit-Gearcase-For-Mercruiser-Alpha-Gen-1-Pre-Alpha-Outdrives-/331229243438)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercruiser-Alpha-one-Gen-1-Lower-Unit-Replacement-90-106-02-SE106-drive-8951A43-/400132606149 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercruiser-Alpha-one-Gen-1-Lower-Unit-Replacement-90-106-02-SE106-drive-8951A43-/400132606149)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercruiser-Alpha-one-Gen-1-Standard-Rotation-RH-Replacement-Lower-Unit-/281237431196 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercruiser-Alpha-one-Gen-1-Standard-Rotation-RH-Replacement-Lower-Unit-/281237431196)
That's rectified with a simple phone call right?
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That's rectified with a simple phone call right?
I emailed SEI...waiting.
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the sei drives are identical to mercruiser, every nut, bolt, bearing, seal and gasket is identical, half the price and twice the warranty, made in the USA. I've used several, Barb has one, the fellow that bought Red's Gold blew the drive tuesday the 2nd, they sent hid air freight and he had it Wednsday, back in the water Wednsday evening for the holidays, you can Not beat their price for a new drive, and you get a No Fault warrenty, go figure.
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Look at this topic from earlier this June. Rob in Burnsville. Did rebuild on mine in about 4 days.
http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=5249.0 (http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=5249.0)
Topic: 1988 115 merc lower unit, nothing but metal shavings (Read 192 times)
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Rebuild cost: $750
Boat Motor Recyclers
1104 Riverwood Dr
Burnsville, MN 55337
952-894-4888
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SEI's response:
Hello Eric,
We do not have a dealer locator as you may order directly with us. Our dealers would pay the same shipping and usually pass the cost onto the customer. The shipping to you on the lower unit is 50.00.
Thank you for contacting SEI.
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The shipping to you on the lower unit is 50.00.
Not a bad deal, actually. Most places mark up their true shipping costs with "handling charges", that doesn't appear to be too bad IMHO.
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How easy is it to change a lower unit?
Are there any special alignment procedures or tools needed?
Do I need to take it to a boat shop to have it changed, or am I capable of doing it, with simple socket wrenches and regular wrenches?
At present, I don't have a pump for filling the lower unit gear oil.
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How easy is it to change a lower unit?
Are there any special alignment procedures or tools needed?
Do I need to take it to a boat shop to have it changed, or am I capable of doing it, with simple socket wrenches and regular wrenches?
At present, I don't have a pump for filling the lower unit gear oil.
The 'pump' will cost you all of $15 from any marine shop...screws onto the top of the qt. of gear lube...and you'll need it for winterizing the boat every fall anyway.
If I could mount my outdrive to my CVZ, anyone can...
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I'd still like more specifics of what it takes to change a lower unit - tools needed, special procedures, etc.
Maybe I can find a video of a Mercruiser sterndrive lower unit change on Youtube?
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I just called Dan in Excelsior, he said welding would cost $100.
If welding isn't a good option, he could sell me a working, used lower unit for $300.
Dan is looking like my best option.
I like the fact that he's capable and local - only a 10 minute drive from my workplace!
Eric
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Eric where are u located maybe I could help I live in Lakeville
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I live in SW Minneapolis. The boat is at the lake cabin, near Paynesville.
At the moment, it is suspended over the lake, on the boat lift. I don't have a vehicle that will pull it, so it stays in the Paynesville area and my lake neighbors tow it to and from the boat launch for me once a year.
Since this year's boating season has been cut short by flooding and no-wake zones, I'm thinking I'll wait until summer is over and the boat is back in the cabin garage to remove the lower unit, etc.
Eric
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I am on diamond lake just south of you a few miles, and have a towing ready vehicle there almost every weekend. Call me from the cell phone list, or send a Private message I can come up and get you on the trailer from the landing to the cabin. I have pulled the LU of my 88 115 merc, and can help you with that,only takes 20 minutes tops. I will watch for you.
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See, just like that you got two people willing to come out and help without even asking. This group is awesome!
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Yes, this is a very friendly group! I appreciate the advice and help!
Update on speed:
My wife and I were out on the boat yesterday. We were in the main seats in the rough middle of the boat.
The SSV-177 is a 17.0 foot boat with the Mercruiser 120 engine.
I cranked it up to full throttle with the 15x17 prop. The GPS reported 30 MPH (ground speed not knots) at 4000 RPM. This was into the wind, if that matters.
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Yes, this is a very friendly group! I appreciate the advice and help!
Update on speed:
My wife and I were out on the boat yesterday. We were in the main seats in the rough middle of the boat.
The SSV-177 is a 17.0 foot boat with the Mercruiser 120 engine.
I cranked it up to full throttle with the 15x17 prop. The GPS reported 30 MPH (ground speed not knots) at 4000 RPM. This was into the wind, if that matters.
Not to put a damper on things but your RPMs look really low. when I was running a 19p aluminium with a mercruier 120 I was getting 5200rpm at WOT.
Now with my 21P laser II it was turning 4800rpm at wot. Even with my newly built mercruiser 140 I am turing around 4800rpm also. I would check your throttle stop bolt to make sure you are getting WOT and the bolt is not preventing you from reaching it.
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Not to put a damper on things but your RPMs look really low. when I was running a 19p aluminium with a mercruier 120 I was getting 5200rpm at WOT.
Now with my 21P laser II it was turning 4800rpm at wot. Even with my newly built mercruiser 140 I am turing around 4800rpm also. I would check your throttle stop bolt to make sure you are getting WOT and the bolt is not preventing you from reaching it.
I was even getting 4600 rpm WOT on my 120 turning a 21p prop. Maybe a compression check is needed to see if that engine is healthy, and make sure it's running on all cylinders.
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Is the throttle stop easy to find and adjust?
Compression was measured during the repairs last August 2013.
This is from the repair invoice:
CYLINDER COMPRESSION
CYL 1 - 162 PSI
CYL 2 - 160 PSI
CYL 3 - 160 PSI
CYL 4 - 154 PSI
Both the 1978 Mercruiser paper manual and the engine sticker say the target RPM is 3900-4300 for a 120.
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab264/neutron68/Glastron/20131005_110143_resized_zps24f7846a.jpg)
(http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab264/neutron68/Glastron/20130803_202837_zps79ea62c9.jpg)
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Its not too hard to find, if someone doesn't post a picture before i get off work I will get one posted after 5:30
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Is this the WOT adjustment on page 166?
http://boatinfo.no/lib/mercruiser/manuals/mercruiser3.html#/166 (http://boatinfo.no/lib/mercruiser/manuals/mercruiser3.html#/166)
Is that the side of the engine or the back?
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Letter A in the image below is the idle adjustment screw and can also act like a throttle stop.
(http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i387/ban-one_1/Untitled_zpsf47696eb.jpg) (http://s1091.photobucket.com/user/ban-one_1/media/Untitled_zpsf47696eb.jpg.html)
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I don't think those carbs have a high speed stop screw, just an idle stop for setting the idle. The throttle is going to open as far as the throttle control will push it.
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I don't think those carbs have a high speed stop screw, just an idle stop for setting the idle. The throttle is going to open as far as the throttle control will push it.
My idle stop screw on my 140 was changed out to a longer screw so it would act like a throttle stop. So I had to change it to a shorter bolt to achieve WOT.