Author Topic: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?  (Read 36216 times)

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Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2016, 09:32:36 PM »
I found several iboats threads with the same symptoms as mine - had water in all cylinders, no water in oil, hard to start after warm and hydrolock in some cases
Problem:  water leaks in exhaust manifold, exhaust elbow/risers, which allowed water to flow back into all cylinders.

http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engine-repair-and-maintenance/mercruiser-i-o-inboard-engines-outdrives/442500-merc-4-3-water-in-cylinders

http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engine-repair-and-maintenance/mercruiser-i-o-inboard-engines-outdrives/42641-5-7-mercruiser-water-in-cylinders
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2016, 06:28:11 PM »
I vacuum extracted the engine oil.  I let it settle for 2 hours before taking photos.  The oil is dark, not milky.





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1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2016, 09:13:07 AM »
I would guess that I should do a compression test to give a hint of any damage from the hydro-lock? 
I would guess if a piston rod got bent or valve got damaged, it would show up as lower compression in the particular cylinder?

Eric
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Rosscoe

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2016, 10:03:04 AM »
That oil looks fine to me.
A compression test could tell you a lot. Narrow down the issue.
Ross
61 Surflite 1964 90HP Johnson project
67 V163 Bayflite Super Sport  1989 100HP Merc
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Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2016, 03:40:06 PM »
I put new oil in and started the engine and ran it for 10 minutes.  I docked it.  Milky oil.  Crap.

I tried to restart it...hydro-locked again.

I pulled the plugs out and every one had a drop of water in the spark gap.  I ran the starter - a fountain of rhythmic sprays.  There didn't seem to be an end to the water.  As long as I cranked the starter, there seemed to be more water spraying out.

The first time it hydro-locked, I thought I saw a single puff of smoke when we heard the CLUNK.  Could that have been the head gasket blowing out?

With milky engine oil in addition to the constant supply of water in the cylinders, I wonder if this is fixable for less than the cost of another engine?

Eric
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 10:24:40 PM by Neutron68 »
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2016, 09:44:36 AM »
The boat is with Dan Luke in Excelsior right now. 
Thus far, Dan has taken off the exhaust elbow and exhaust manifold and they pressure tested ok.

I think that means the water breech point is inside the engine block, or a failed exhaust flapper?
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2016, 10:32:15 AM »
      If water is continuing to spray out the spark plug holes while just sitting in the water and cranking the starter, I would suspect a head gasket or a crack in head or block.  The flappers prevent a surge from pushing water past the elbow which can happen when you come off plane.   The clunk is disturbing, hydrolock can cause damage.   Hope for the best, let us know
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2016, 12:13:04 PM »
I got a look at the removed exhaust manifold and exhaust elbow on Friday - look very clean.

I think one of the next tests is the compression test.
Then, run the engine on water muffs (after being sure water is out of the cylinders).
If water in the cylinders again, then we rule out the exhaust flapper, and look at the head and head gasket.

Eric


1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2016, 12:34:28 PM »
If compression looks good, I would perform a leak down test, it will help diagnose a bad head gasket which would be better than a cracked head or block.  Without a leak down test, just pressurizing the cylinder with air pressure will help in diagnosing the issue.  Only difference is without the orifice in a leak down tester, the air pressure could push the piston to the bottom.  The manifold looks clean, and you had it pressure tested.  A leak into all cylinders is really confusing when the manifold is not attached.  A crack into the intake or exhaust side could do that, but I've never seen a head gasket or crack fail on all four cylinders.
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2016, 04:52:12 PM »
Dan just texted that he "did a compression test and it was ok."
Next, he ran the engine for 30 minutes on the water muffs.  He said it ran fine with no problems.
He then shut off the engine and let it set for 5-15 minutes.  (like I had been doing at the lake)
He said it started right up.  (unlike what happened to me the last 2 weekends at the lake)
He didn't want to pull the plugs and be 100% sure there was no water in the cylinders.
I think he's given up.

Eric

« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 05:25:44 PM by Neutron68 »
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2016, 06:13:51 PM »
I just talked to Dan on the phone.
He said he's run every test he can think of without opening up the engine.
He said it's running and restarting fine, in the driveway, on the garden hose.

He says he's seen situations where an engine runs fine in the driveway, and fails in the lake.
He said, if the engine gets water in it, when I put it back in the lake, then the engine is junk. 
He said that means there is some internal engine water breech that will be expensive to tear down and find - not worth the labor.

Since nothing was changed on the engine, (other than new exhaust manifold gasket and exhaust elbow gasket) I expect I'll have water in the cylinders when I put it back in the lake.

Not sure what to do now...
Buy a used engine and try my luck with that?
Buy a new engine? 
Part out the Glastron and buy a different used boat?

Eric
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 07:16:43 PM by Neutron68 »
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline dorelse

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2016, 08:26:44 PM »
Only you can answer that question. 

I had my 305 rebuilt from a rusted hulk full of water for roughly $1350.00 and that was with a replacement block.  The engine is still going strong today, 5 years later.

Sometimes its better to stick with the devil you know...another used boat will have issues of its own, but again, that's all up to you.  Had the 3.7L fit in my Metric, I'd have had that for you...but not gonna happen now.

Good luck!
1990 Sierra 1700

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2016, 08:49:57 PM »
I had my 305 rebuilt from a rusted hulk full of water for roughly $1350.00 and that was with a replacement block.  The engine is still going strong today, 5 years later.
How can I find such a price on a rebuild?  Do I have to do it myself?  I'm not a mechanic and have limited tools, experience and motivation.

I'm guessing you bought a crated block similar to this and transferred the rest of the external engine parts to it?
http://www.michiganmotorz.com/marine-engine-1968-1989-p-942.html

From my limited experience, I like the way the SSV-177 handles - gets up on plane pretty fast and seems pretty stable in all situations.
I don't know if another v-hull boat is going to perform as well?

I've pretty bad luck with this boat and 2 engines I've had. 
Is this typical? 
Is every used boat just a box of hidden problems and turds packaged up for the unsuspecting buyer?

Eric

« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 08:53:29 PM by Neutron68 »
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Online Hyperacme

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2016, 09:33:58 PM »
" Is every used boat just a box of hidden problems and turds packaged up for the unsuspecting buyer? "

Yes ... LOL

" Is this typical? "

Yes ... would bet more then half of us have had unexpected problems with our "OLD" boats.
But our boats are 35 to 45 years old and cost $2000 to $3000 ... not $30000 to $40000 for a newer one.
Seems like ya solve one problem and another problem pops up ....

BOAT  = Break Out Another Thousand ...
 
Some one will post local engine rebuilders and you'll still be well under the $30000 range.
Hang in there !



Offline 75starflight

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2016, 10:36:43 PM »
I have a good block and head sitting in my shop here in Nebraska if you need it. It was a mercruiser 120. Block casting #s were the same as the 140 I replaced it with.

Oh, I will sell it cheap too.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 10:39:25 PM by 75starflight »
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Offline Jason

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2016, 10:48:03 PM »
A good quality rebuild of a 140 is 2500-3000. BUT. If you have a crack it's not going to fix that. For under 3k you can get a brand new long block from Michigan Motorz. Probably a better route. You already went the used route right? Otherwise, sell as is and hope for better with a new-used boat.
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2016, 07:53:52 AM »
Just to be certain, I went back through and re-read the entire thread.  You stated that only the exhaust manifold and elbow gasket were replaced, but you doubt that was an issue.  Further, it runs, starts, and re-starts on a hose in the driveway and works great?  Sounds like the elbow gasket was bad, when they fail water enters the exhaust before the elbow, being hot could make the leak worse.  In the elbow, the water jackets do not open to the exhaust flow untill after the turn, or just before the flex coupler.  There are no water passages in use at the lake that are not in use in the driveway on the hose.  As for ignition, both the ignitor and flamethrower coil need full 12 v when running and cranking. 
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2016, 09:27:31 AM »
Just to be certain, I went back through and re-read the entire thread.  You stated that only the exhaust manifold and elbow gasket were replaced, but you doubt that was an issue.
Correct, the exhaust manifold and exhaust elbow were taken off, looked at and the same units were put back on (with new gaskets).  Dan said he pressure tested the manifold and elbow and they were fine.  Dan did NOT say anything about the gaskets being bad.  He just changed them because that is best practice.
Further, it runs, starts, and re-starts on a hose in the driveway and works great?
To my surprise, that is what Dan reported to me.
Sounds like the elbow gasket was bad, when they fail water enters the exhaust before the elbow, being hot could make the leak worse.  In the elbow, the water jackets do not open to the exhaust flow until after the turn, or just before the flex coupler.  There are no water passages in use at the lake that are not in use in the driveway on the hose.
I hope you are correct and the replaced exhaust elbow gasket will fix the problem, but Dan never reported the gasket was bad, so I don't expect that it will.
As for ignition, both the ignitor and flamethrower coil need full 12 v when running and cranking.
From the observations made over the last 2 weeks, the engine starts pretty easily, as long as there is no water in the cylinders.  Unless the starter solenoid is bad, both the Pertronix ignition module and the Flamethrower coil should be getting a full 12V when the starter is cranked.  This summer, I ran a wire to bypass the ignition coil resistance wire so the Pertronix module would bet a full 12V, at all times.  So that should not be a problem.

Clearly, the next step is to lake test the boat and see what happens.  I will expect to have water in the cylinders and so I won't shut off the engine unless I am at a dock or a boat trailer!

Eric


1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2016, 10:11:22 AM »
I have a good block and head sitting in my shop here in Nebraska if you need it. It was a mercruiser 120. Block casting #s were the same as the 140 I replaced it with.

Oh, I will sell it cheap too.
Thank you for the offer. 
I checked the manual that came with the boat and it shows a difference in cylinder bore between a 120 and a 140. 
Did your 120 have up-sized pistons?

Eric
1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140

Offline Neutron68

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Re: Mercruiser 140, starts when cold, won't start when hot?
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2016, 12:28:27 PM »
How difficult is it to get to the head gasket and look at it?  Dan didn't seem to want to go that far into the engine.

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1978 Glastron SSV-177, Mercruiser 140