Author Topic: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?  (Read 4309 times)

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Offline ford-bldr

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Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« on: September 29, 2019, 05:04:59 AM »
Getting ready for a boat flipping party.

I'm going to sand down and re-paint the bottom. (Gotta figure what kind of paint they used previously)

This is going to be a Water Ski /Tubing ...Profiling 8) toy.(SPARKLY!)
Evinrude 140

   I'm not out for top speed but I am a stickler for good handling.
The "Chine Walk" everyone describes is really more like Stern Wobble.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKROibULq1U
(That guy's really workin' the wheel. That's usually the point where you see bass boats flip - usually due to inexperience)

Good hydraulic steering is not a silver bullet, but it helps with "feel" and that feel will keep you out of trouble more than you realize sometimes.

But I digress.
So , it's not beyond my ability to add a pad but...

  (1)  Is it worth it?

  (2)  Does the stern get dragged around by the skier like I've heard or is that hear-say?
A pad puts a hard chine at the stern, making that tougher for the skier to "steer" the boat.


  (3)  I know pad bottoms ride harder but it's not a primary boat. Round Bottoms ride hard too so it it noticeable?

   (4)  I seen elsewhere that the 500s "handle" best. Handle being a relative term.
Does anyone have experience or heard of the handling differences between these boats?

Just for reference. Thanks Hyperacme!!
http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=8191.msg121318#msg121318

Thanks

Dan

Seems all my hobbies require Alcohol and Fossil Fuels...

8' Glen-L MiniMaxed Hydro
16' Checkmate Merc 150
22' Pachanga 350 Mag
22' Velocity 350 Mag
28' Velocity 600 hp Merlin block
20' Century Arabian 454 V Drive
17' Laser tunnel hull
16'CV16 Project

https://www.supermotors.net/users/Snakoil

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2019, 08:06:29 AM »
I can honestly say I've never experienced chine walk while pulling a tube or skier.  My 16's and CVZ-18 are pad hulls, the Timi is not, BTW the fastest top speed of any of them out of the box.  I've experienced a bit of a walk on a pad, but not as pronounced as with a  V.  When I worked the Timi hull, I considered adding a pad, but later decided against it due to it's complexity, and the fact that I'm not a boat hull design engineer.  Can it be done?  Certainly, but the chance it will work perfectly as designed the first time is unlikely, and I didn't want to go back and redo it over.  Comparing the 18 with the 20 indicated more differences than just a flat spot on the stern.  I'm not trying to talk you out of it, would love to see such a project documented well, but after my research, I found it was not worth the effort.
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2019, 09:39:22 AM »
Wanted to add, aero marine research was a company I discussed pad modifications with.  If I was going to do it, I'd opt for their input, or buy the software. 
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline Hyperacme

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2019, 12:00:09 PM »
I have read that before the days of computer design, they ( Mr. Pipkorn / Hydrostream) would design a hull then take it to the lake and test it, then pull it out and add, subtract or change the pad and hull, put back in the water and test again. Once they got it right they made a mold of it and started production.

It would be a gamble if your pad mod would work on first try, or you would have to add, subtract or change.
Jeff extended the chine/stakes on his GT150 all the way to the stern as did a friend of Doug's on a C500, but they haven't tested there mod's yet.

When I got my CV, motor was all the way down, 40 year old sloppy cable steering and a 20P Laser II prop, it would run about 50 MPH/GPS and didn't have any problems, but after testing a 21P Ballistic prop, which got boat over 50 mph I got very bad chine walk, and crazy amounts of torque steer.  But after lifting motor, Baystar steering and 22P Laser II prop it work very well above 50 mph. You still have to balance it, as wind and waves will get it to rock back and forth, but not what I would call chine walking. Small steering correction will bring it back.

Is your 140 a powerhead or prop rated motor ?
You could set up and prop for the 50 mph range and not have any handling problems.
For water skiing I don't think you'd want motor lifted to high or you'll blow out in turns.
I've never pulled a skier or tube so can't comment.



Offline Hyperacme

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2019, 12:04:45 PM »
Jeff's GT150 chine extension
Before and after ..

Offline ford-bldr

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2019, 12:12:06 PM »
Plugcheck,

I don't think chine walk is an issue at ski-speed
I'm wondering about the boat's stern getting pulled.

For example:
My Brother-in-law is big as a doorway. He has one of those "Big Daddy" skis. When I pull him with the Chaparral, I can definitely feel the tug as he changes direction. It doesn't affect the boats direction, however.  At the other end of the spectrum, we tried it one time with our 3 person jet ski and he literally steered the thing - funny and disconcerting at the same time.

I thought about emulating the 500 series bottom. Glastron probably came about this by trial and error. Maybe not perfection but not dangerous either.




Seems all my hobbies require Alcohol and Fossil Fuels...

8' Glen-L MiniMaxed Hydro
16' Checkmate Merc 150
22' Pachanga 350 Mag
22' Velocity 350 Mag
28' Velocity 600 hp Merlin block
20' Century Arabian 454 V Drive
17' Laser tunnel hull
16'CV16 Project

https://www.supermotors.net/users/Snakoil

Offline ford-bldr

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2019, 12:33:41 PM »
Hyperacme

I've seen those posts.
Seems nobody's out there on the water with them yet ;)

A big part of me wants to do it but I don't want to be working on it all winter either - for not much possible gain....

The motor is a 78 Evinrude 140. Don't recall when they changed the rating system.

Was wondering what mounting height would be best compromise. I'll have to do some research on that one.

Pipkorn and Stepp both designed boats that way.
My 28' Velocity was good for 92 GPS - Stable as hell great on re-entry.

Certainly not looking for that here. Just a good performing ski boat. It's sure got the looks!
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 12:36:08 PM by ford-bldr »
Seems all my hobbies require Alcohol and Fossil Fuels...

8' Glen-L MiniMaxed Hydro
16' Checkmate Merc 150
22' Pachanga 350 Mag
22' Velocity 350 Mag
28' Velocity 600 hp Merlin block
20' Century Arabian 454 V Drive
17' Laser tunnel hull
16'CV16 Project

https://www.supermotors.net/users/Snakoil

Offline Hyperacme

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2019, 12:48:05 PM »
Your motor would be powerhead rated.
I don't know anything about set up for ski boats, but would guess you'd want as much hull and motor in the water as possible to keep from being pulled around by a heavy skier ..
Are speeds for pulling skier about high 20's to mid 30's range ?

Offline ford-bldr

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2019, 02:08:39 PM »
Depends on the skier

Regular slalom -  Mid to high twenties.

Ex marine nephew  Showing off for the girls and spraying the dock... 32 to 35 for about 5 minutes ;D

example:
This guy's got some guns.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 02:10:34 PM by ford-bldr »
Seems all my hobbies require Alcohol and Fossil Fuels...

8' Glen-L MiniMaxed Hydro
16' Checkmate Merc 150
22' Pachanga 350 Mag
22' Velocity 350 Mag
28' Velocity 600 hp Merlin block
20' Century Arabian 454 V Drive
17' Laser tunnel hull
16'CV16 Project

https://www.supermotors.net/users/Snakoil

Offline Hyperacme

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2019, 02:44:17 PM »
18P to 20P prop would work for that speed ..
Your boat/motor/ etc. and you (200 lbs.) would only be 1300 to 1400 lbs.
A 18 to 20 foot open bow I/O would be in the 2200 to 3000 lbs. plus range and not get pulled around as bad.

Offline ford-bldr

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2019, 02:54:06 PM »
Yea I was looking at some charts.
I have an 18 (Composite)
The motor is still on the boat in storage and I cant remember whats on it (Stainless)
Seems all my hobbies require Alcohol and Fossil Fuels...

8' Glen-L MiniMaxed Hydro
16' Checkmate Merc 150
22' Pachanga 350 Mag
22' Velocity 350 Mag
28' Velocity 600 hp Merlin block
20' Century Arabian 454 V Drive
17' Laser tunnel hull
16'CV16 Project

https://www.supermotors.net/users/Snakoil

Offline fireman24mn

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2019, 02:08:42 PM »
I would think that adding a pad would make it easier to get pulled around by a skier. More hull and motor in the water the better for not getting pulled around. A pad would give you a flat bottom with nothing to "hold" it in place. Just my thoughts.

Also if you are pulling someone big they will probably move a 16ft boat around no matter what you do to the hull.
I think this has become an addiction.


1977 CV-23 I/O Full Resto complete
1976 CV-16 V8 Resto in progress
1985 Pearson MotorYacht 43ft

Offline ford-bldr

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2019, 03:30:29 PM »
fireman24mn,

You're right about a flat bottom sliding. Round bottoms are't much better.

The sharp edge chines are what bite.

I wonder why they didn't extend the center chines all the way back?
It would seem like an improvement.
Sure would be nice to talk to some of those original people / designers / testers

I hope this link is allowed:
https://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?251915-glastron-gt150/page4

The pics are gone but I saved them when I was digging a couple of years ago.
Seems all my hobbies require Alcohol and Fossil Fuels...

8' Glen-L MiniMaxed Hydro
16' Checkmate Merc 150
22' Pachanga 350 Mag
22' Velocity 350 Mag
28' Velocity 600 hp Merlin block
20' Century Arabian 454 V Drive
17' Laser tunnel hull
16'CV16 Project

https://www.supermotors.net/users/Snakoil

Offline ford-bldr

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2019, 03:46:05 PM »
These are a Sidewinder, I think...

But this is a speed thread and again. I'm more interested in handling.
I'm sure Carlson didn't use a computer and we've learned a lot in 35 years... We'll maybe not me...

Seems all my hobbies require Alcohol and Fossil Fuels...

8' Glen-L MiniMaxed Hydro
16' Checkmate Merc 150
22' Pachanga 350 Mag
22' Velocity 350 Mag
28' Velocity 600 hp Merlin block
20' Century Arabian 454 V Drive
17' Laser tunnel hull
16'CV16 Project

https://www.supermotors.net/users/Snakoil

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2019, 06:30:06 PM »
Funny, the link from scream and fly is Doug, V153.   If having the stern pulled around by a heavy pull, which, as Shawn stated is going to happen using a 16.  My advice would be to larger wheel, but lower pitch to keep the rpms up.  If you going to work the bottom, then expanding and sharpening the strakes is suggested.  Keeping hull in the water would likely improve handling over skipping on a pad.  BTW, by the time I'm up on the pad in my cvz, I'm way beyond ski speed. 
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline ford-bldr

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2019, 03:22:33 AM »
" BTW, by the time I'm up on the pad in my cvz, I'm way beyond ski speed. "
   
       Good to know.

  You guys have been a great help.

If you look at Velocities - The design is not unlike the possible Sidewinder pics that I posted, only the pad is wider (Like a foot but with a very slight V) and they have a stepped transom. Not the same style bottom - Deep V/ deadrise etc, BUT, the strakes are the sharpest I've seen on any boat.

Not trying to emulate that for sure. The strakes though are parallel with the water and 90 degrees vertical.


Fodder for thought:

Given that the pad on a C series doesn't come into play until later, maybe having an additional sharp strake at the bottom of the hull
against a side force be helpful?


As a casual fan of performance boat design, (Not a boat designer, I played one on TV) , I've always had a soft spot in my heart for the Allisons, Hydrostreams, the Laser and most certainly the Glastron/Carlsons. All designed by trial and error and trial and error etc.

The fact that Glastron, after a fashion, put a small pad on the C Series - would that have been a nod to those pad designs from those mentioned above?

By the way I'm not a Boatdesgn.net type "Technical discussion on fluid dynamics: theory and analysis etc."
                                    Wine and Cheese and Pontification.   Interesting though

I'm just a guy in my garage that wants to do a good job and get it done and - Oh, my wife wants the Laundry Room remodeled too.
No designer needed there, I'm married to her.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 03:28:22 AM by ford-bldr »
Seems all my hobbies require Alcohol and Fossil Fuels...

8' Glen-L MiniMaxed Hydro
16' Checkmate Merc 150
22' Pachanga 350 Mag
22' Velocity 350 Mag
28' Velocity 600 hp Merlin block
20' Century Arabian 454 V Drive
17' Laser tunnel hull
16'CV16 Project

https://www.supermotors.net/users/Snakoil

Offline ford-bldr

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2019, 09:34:50 AM »
Plugcheck,

Sorry I skipped over your reference to Jim Russell (Aero Marine)!
I've followed him for years.

I don't know what a basic software package would cost though...
Seems all my hobbies require Alcohol and Fossil Fuels...

8' Glen-L MiniMaxed Hydro
16' Checkmate Merc 150
22' Pachanga 350 Mag
22' Velocity 350 Mag
28' Velocity 600 hp Merlin block
20' Century Arabian 454 V Drive
17' Laser tunnel hull
16'CV16 Project

https://www.supermotors.net/users/Snakoil

Offline Plugcheck

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2019, 10:08:26 AM »
If memory serves me correctly, I thought the software was $399?
Michael
1979 CVZ-18 388 CI Vortec Mouse
1980 CVX-16SS 140 Mercruiser
1979 CVX-16 Johnson 175
2002 Bennington 2275CC 90 Mercury
1985 Intimidator project
1989 Lowe 200 Redneck fishin Toon
2001 Godfrey Sweetwater pontoon 115 Rude

Offline ford-bldr

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2019, 11:10:51 AM »
Yes
I went back and found it. Still has a first generation website....
400 bucks for my project :-/

Ok, so what I'm seeing here is a tapered pad without hard strakes.

If I put hard strakes on that pad with the tapered angle it has, it would screw with the flow of the existing strakes.
( I figured this all out with my neck-top computer ;D )

So I guess I'll stick with extending the existing strakes.
I may harden the angle on the edges however. (Spinning up my neck-top)

Dan


Seems all my hobbies require Alcohol and Fossil Fuels...

8' Glen-L MiniMaxed Hydro
16' Checkmate Merc 150
22' Pachanga 350 Mag
22' Velocity 350 Mag
28' Velocity 600 hp Merlin block
20' Century Arabian 454 V Drive
17' Laser tunnel hull
16'CV16 Project

https://www.supermotors.net/users/Snakoil

Offline dorelse

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Re: Adding Pad to CV16 - Pro / Cons Anybody done it?
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2019, 09:21:02 PM »
I've had a tuber cause my CVZ to skid out on the pad...scariest thing that's ever happened to me on a boat.  Not fun at all.
1990 Sierra 1700