Minnesota Classic Glastron Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: 63g3 on January 17, 2017, 09:34:16 AM
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Hi guys,
Just looking for suggested prop sizes. I'd like to look around for props this winter,I have not run it so, I have no baseline. I just finished the boat, it's a 1975 and it has a fresh 76 1150 Merc so, that's the flywheel rating lower power 1150. Motor has PT. I would like it to spin in the 5400 to 5600 range, me alone in the boat, the in lines are better off spinning higher than lower.
I'm thinking 19 to 21 pitch range for a simple cupped three blade or possibly something with bow lift so maybe a Laser? Those would be in 20 to 22 range. Not sure if torque steer gets bad with the lasers or any prop with rake as the motor is on the transom top, not raised. I kept the boat original so it has the single push pull bolted to the motor well, it's 100% good but not sure I'd want to load that arrangement up with lots of torque steer. It also seems these boats get chine walking once you try to get much bow lift by over trimming so that may mean you can't really take advantage of a prop that lifts the bow. I drive fast v pad bottoms so I can handle chine walk but, concerned that would start working the steering a lot. I want to keep the boat original so I wouldn't upgrade to a dual cable or hydraulic.
Anyways, I figure this boat motor should be high 40's maybe low 50's with right prop so looking for some input, comparisons, experience. I'm not looking to get the last mph, got other boats for that, just a good balance and not much torque steer. The boat is too cool just the way it is.
Thanks,
Randy
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Chris had a boat and motor just like yours, and tried a Laser II, 2-blade bronze 21", and a Ballistic stainless steel 3 blade 21" pitch. He had the best performance from the Ballistic, which has mild bow lift. I believe his speed was about 53 MPH. That Ballistic should not be hard to find used on e-bay. This prop with the universal hub has a difference part number.
I tried these same props on my Glastron V-153 and the Ballistic performed well. The Laser II had lots of steering torque and the Ballistic not so much.
Let me know if you need exact part numbers for a search.
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Welcome to the forum Randy !
Gil and Dave also had / have GT160's.
I'll do some searching and see what they were / are using.
You really never know how a prop will perform until ya try it.
Buy them cheap on Craigslist & eBay, try them, sell them if they don't work for you ...
Try a NFB steering system.
http://www.seastarsolutions.com/ (http://www.seastarsolutions.com/)
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I have a GT160 1150 that I have used almost every year since 1990.
For a simple 3 bladed cupped prop on the 21" is too much, use the 19" with some rake for bow lift.
I would also suggest placing a 3/4" aluminum bar on top of the transom to raise the motor.
I would also add a NFB steering rack to it and making sure the splashwell mount is in good condition.
Scott
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Looks like Gil had a 1987 Merc (prop rated 115 HP) and was using a 21P ballistic @ 54 MPH / GPS.
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Looks like Gil had a 1987 Merc (prop rated 115 HP) and was using a 21P ballistic @ 54 MPH / GPS.
I have a friend with a GT160 1150 that could never stay with my boat until he upgraded to a newer prop shaft rated 1150 and went to a high performance 21p (I do not recall brand, type or specs).
He now is able to go upper 50's no problem.
With the flywheel rated engines (more like 90 hp at the prop) you can go with a big prop with all the mods and have a single purpose boat that still isn't that fast and won't pull a skier or turn well or you can put a good 19p on it and have a nice well rounded runabout that will go upper 40's all day, pull skiers, and do whatever else a runabout is good for.
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Great input exactly what I was hoping for, thank you to everyone. Sounds like a 19 plain Jane with a cup is a good place to start so I'll start sniffing around for one. I'll keep an eye open for a low pitch ballistic or a laser once I get a baseline on the 19......now just gotta wait for spring!
Randy
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I scored a 19 ballistic on eBay in the original case for 150 and looked through my props and came up with a standard stainless three blade 19. Based on what has been tried and recommended one of these should work out or at least be close.
Thanks again...just in time to catch that ballistic auction.
Randy
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I'm glad you got that settled, and now we need a few pictures of the rig! 😀
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Dave is correct ...
We need pictures !
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Its pretty trust me . May be he'll throw a few pictures of his pristine Hydrostream .
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Gil has me blushing now as you know how good his work is. Years ago I was hunting for either a Hydrostream Vector or a GT160. At that time I got close to popping on a GT but found a Stream that got the nod for sentimental reasons. The balsa core in the Streams make for hideous work to correct so, although I've done other boats since it diminished my enthusiasm for basket case restos.
I have been keeping one eye out for a Glastron jet, (Gil's project got me cranked up about that) in case the right one drifted by, then I spotted this GT end of the summer. It was listed in the VT craigslist but, it was in Canada. A 1975 not wet since 81 and always in a garage, original now very elderly owner. The only downer was it had an line 4 Merc 850 rather than an inline 6 but that was a easy problem to remedy, I've got tons of that stuff. It was within a days drive for round trip pick-up, crossing boarder proved to be a non issue. I guess it was gonna be another outboard rather than a jet.
This was an easy resto as compared to what I've done before, every once in a while you get lucky.
I'm completing the 76 1150 powerhead this winter that's the last of the heavy lifting on this project.
I just ran out of time so, the push was to get the boat done before the weather shut me down.
I won't bore you here but I posted the work on fiberglassics under members projects topic is "what to do on a minty barn find". Surprising how much was needed to straighten out the typical Glastron weaknesses but, that said I was impressed with the way most things were done compared to other boats I've restored from that era. Overall a nice rig at the time and this being so original I tried to keep it so while making the improvements. I do have the Glastron wheel but where I had this wheel with the ride guide cap I thought it OK to keep the dash all year correct quicksilver components. I also don't risk the original wheel which is just plastic, I'll swap out for shows.
Anyways, here are some not so good photos of the boat pretty much done prior to shrink wrap for winter..... also, where Gil suggested 🤗 I'll do another reply with a pic of my Stream.
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Absolutely gorgeous. What a showpiece.
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OK and here is my Vector all 1974, this has a 1500 done with XS parts but using a 20 inch mid, a good day gets a tick over 70 with a 24 laser. Boat in motion picture was taken at a Scream and Fly event a few years ago wow did they get that right. The other one is where I would take the cover off of it when working on the GT as inspiration, obviously Hydrostream stole a few styling cues from Glastron!
Randy
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WOW !
Don't see many Glastron's in that shape ...
Even less in blue with the front seats intact.
Your "Stream" looks pretty sweet also !
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Very beautiful Boats!
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Very nice!
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Extremely nice 160. I like the Riv on the background as well! 68-69?
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I'm surprised no one recommended a Raker. Give you better performance than a Ballistic or Laser.
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Ha,
You guys are Good! Now I need to look for a Raker to try also. Keep in mind it's torque steer I want to stay away from I'll trade less torque steer for less speed on this particular ride...I can hear the booo's and hisses now! Any opinions on the torque steer scale for a raker?
Geeez nothing escapes keen eyes, its a 67 Riv, I suspose you also noticed my lawn is a mess🙂 I just rebuilt the motor and dropped it in between sessions with the GT Resto work, a busy fall for sure.
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A NFB steering system will tame the torque steering.
NFB Rack ...
http://www.seastarsolutions.com/products/mechanical-steering/nfb-rack-steering/ (http://www.seastarsolutions.com/products/mechanical-steering/nfb-rack-steering/)
NFB Rotary ...
http://www.seastarsolutions.com/products/mechanical-steering/nfb-4-2-rotary-steering/ (http://www.seastarsolutions.com/products/mechanical-steering/nfb-4-2-rotary-steering/)
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Rakers have a lot of torque steer, but as Gregg mentioned, a NFB steering system eliminates it.
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Thanks for the heads up on the Raker, they look like they would behave like a Laser which I am more familiar with. I appreciate the lead on the NFB. I have an NFB rack and pinion clutch system on a 23 Chris Craft I/O I restored, it's awful at least in my opinion. It works by basicly locking the rotation with a sort of sprauge clutch system so you have to break it free to steer. It makes it very hard to initiate a turn of the wheel and lots of effort to over come what I'll call stiction ( half sticking half friction) to feather the wheel back and forth like you would when countering chine walk. If you just want to let go of the wheel and not have the wheel turn it's perfect for that scenario but, in this instance that's not the issue. I probably did not fully explain my concern.
Normally speaking torque steer is just part of the speed deal, I expect that, it's pretty hard to avoid with high Perf props and I can handle chine walk just fine it's just I am mindful that Glastron in 75 did not supply high Perf steering cables so I don't want to tax it pulling against torque steer where I am leaving everything as original as possible. So ideal prop is one I can trim out with no cavitation and gives at least some amount of bow lift without inducing much torque steer. I realize this will leave some speed potential on the table but that's fine.....and of course there may not be such a prop either!
I would do a dual cable but because of originality concerns this boat will always be a single cable.
That said I did scrounge up a modern cable mount tube that will fit the existing transom mount swivel ball hardware and that would allow me to put a newer style, stronger cable and better helm in the boat with minimum visual impact on originality. The original Morse cable outer jacket connection to the transom tube is an obsolete style and at the motor connection end of the cable has is a threaded stud at the end not seen on current day cables. On the rack end it is not a width or bolt pattern used anymore so the whole thing has to go but, at least I can leave the transom mount as is intact.
I might do that in a year or so as an upgrade, I gotta let the wallet cool off a bit but I'm thinking it will be a straight rack and pinion rather than NFB. Maybe there is something wrong with the NFB I have and have read similar disappointing comments about this system on other sites.....or maybe they have ironed that out. I swapped it out on my CC after two seasons of what felt like arm wrestling at every turn of the wheel in idle on up. Maybe you guys have better NFB results?
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63,
Pretty new boat.
But that's going on with the motor? You said it was a 4 cyl and you were switching to a 6, are you keeping the same lower or?
Dan
btw, nice car too.
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My motor was all the way down, cable non-NFB steering, prop testing.
http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=3265.0 (http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=3265.0)
Try a bunch of props and see what works for you ...
My CV is far from original/stock/mint.
I lifted my motor, mounted a Lazer II 22P and installed a Baystar hyd. steering system.
54 MPH / GPS no chime walk or torque steer ...
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I wonder if a four blade prop would help meet your criteria? Not so sure it would be period correct though................Both those boats are really nice examples
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The bronze 2 blade was the best for torque steer, but it's not easy to find the performance ones Dave had ...
"Kind of forgot when/where in the order we did it but tried one of his 2 blade props ..
2 blade 22P - 50.8 mph at about 5300 -5400 rpms, very little torque steer, but weird noise, maybe vibration, maybe just the way the prop is, coming from motor, worked pretty good and felt very smooth."
Ross's prop testing ...
http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=2371.0 (http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=2371.0)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p286/Hyperacme/CGOAmn/CuppedBronze21Prop013resize.jpg)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p286/Hyperacme/CGOAmn/CuppedBronze21Prop014resize.jpg)
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p286/Hyperacme/CGOAmn/CuppedBronze21Prop015resize.jpg)
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The 2-blade bronze prop was by far the best and fastest prop on my V-153 with the 115 HP Merc, hitting about 53 MPH. The prop has little bow lift, but the blades are thin and there are only 2 blades. Others have tried it, Bruce on his CV 16 and he had vibration, and Chris on his GT160 and it did not work for him. For 63g3 the safest prop to try is the Ballistic 21" pitch prop that has medium bow lift, little torque steer, and operates well with the motor not elevated, which the Laser II requires. Steve A. hits about 57 MPH on his CV-16 with a 115 HP Merc using a Rapture SS 21" pitch. I had poor luck with that prop. A Raker would require rehubbing to a Mercury 15 spline shaft.
If I ever switched to the 1988 115 HP Merc on the CVX-16, I would try a 22" Laser II first, then see if I could rehub the Rakers and SRX to fit the Mercury.
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DLNorth, I took the 1975 850 off and put on a 1976 low hour 1150 I found. Both are the lower flywheel rated motors , the 1150 does have a fresh powerhead, I've gone through it to be confident in condition. Although the mids are the same, the lowers have different ratios and I wanted PT so in the end it was easier to swap out complete motors.
The 850 was just to clean to break up as would have been needed to leave that mid clamped on and exchange everything else required.
David, Hyperacme, good idea on the earlier brass two blade. I have an eye out for one of the 2 blade bronze "hi rake" performance props as Merc named them in the day. The standard two blade brass are not cupped so I think that makes those a non starter. I do have a 24 pitch hi rake but I think that's too steep. ( also no where near as pretty as one posted!) I have a 24 Merc elephant ear SS two blade ( also too steep for this) which testing on other hulls showed it had some bow lift, minimal torque steer and oddly it also made the motor sound different. It was however slow compared to newer three blade designs but, if I could find either of these in lower pitches those might be the ticket.
I'm hovering around 19 or 20 pitch where this is the weaker flywheel hp 1150. I think most of you here have the later prop rated 1150's in either OMC or Merc flavors, which really would compare to about 140 or so at flywheel so I have to pitch down from where you guys are.
I had not thought of a 4 blade interesting idea....not worried too much if prop is not vintage correct, I'll compromise on what's not really seen😉. The 4 blades when used on inboards are like butter.
Randy
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I have had several Hi Performance Mercury Quicksilver 2-blade bronze props, 20 and 22 inch. They meant to run with the motor in an elevated position, as Mercury used them for racing. The standard 2-blade bronze prop is a better prop for you as I have tested both props against each other. You should be looking for part number 48-49630, and the prop can come cupped from the factory, as I bought one years ago at a bargain on e-bay. A prop shop could also add the cup if you cannot find a cupped prop. Used to have four of the 48-9630's, but sold them all when I sold the V-153. A fellow Glastron member bought two of them and loves them. Here are pictures of props for a Mercury - Ballistic, Quicksilver, and Powertech.
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OK good to know on the high rake brass really needing higher running height, I'll stop looking for those. The standard brass ones are easier to find and you are right on adding the cup, so that's a reasonable option. I think a -A3 suffix might mean cupped from factory and a -A1 is non cupped but, it was a looooong time ago I was looking at those designations.
Great info guys really appreciate it.
Randy
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Rakers have a lot of torque steer, but as Gregg mentioned, a NFB steering system eliminates it.
Keep in mind an NFB system will make the wheel harder to turn.
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If I ever switched to the 1988 115 HP Merc on the CVX-16, I would try a 22" Laser II first, then see if I could rehub the Rakers and SRX to fit the Mercury.
Obviously you'd have to rehub an SRX. But Rakers have been universal hub for awhile.
Don't forget a Lightspeed if ya see one cheap. Good hole shot prop.
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Wow, those are two VERY nice boats! Our friends had the exact Vector with a 150 Merc when I was growing up. There's a GT-160 with a 115hp Merc on the lake I live on now exactly like yours but of course not near the condition yours is. Fun to see it on the lake.
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Obviously you'd have to rehub an SRX. But Rakers have been universal hub for awhile.
Don't forget a Lightspeed if ya see one cheap. Good hole shot prop.
The Raker universal hub is only on the V6 and V8 models, 14 1/2 diameter blades, called the RAKER II TBX. They do not make the universal hub for the 13 1/2 diameter V4 models. I do not know why - maybe not enough demand.
I also noticed that Laser props are made in 19,20,21,22,23,24,25,and 26 inch pitchs whereas before it was in even pitches only. I wonder if they have improved the design of the prop as the years go by. The original Laser II prop must have come out in the 1990's.
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"I also noticed that Laser props are made in 19,20,21,22,23,24,25,and 26 inch pitchs whereas before it was in even pitches only"
I was looking on the Merc. site and saw LaserII come in new/more sizes ...
But they have only been out for a year or two and new one's are crazy expensive !
Would like to try a 23P in 10 to 15 years when price of used one's on Craigslist comes down ... LOL
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I have a feeling that the Laser II prop has fine tuned many times over by Mercury Marine in its lifetime as they make modifications and test them. Also the exactness of the castings and ways to finish them have improved. Years back, DAH prop works in Wisconsin boasted that they could always make a Laser II faster as the blade pitches were not consistent, nor the prop balanced.
Mercury Marine would never tell you the above, or tell you the bad years of the Laser II before they were improved.