Minnesota Classic Glastron Forum

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Scott in nh on August 09, 2015, 06:35:14 AM

Title: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 09, 2015, 06:35:14 AM
Finally got a good start on this project yesterday.
As you will see from the pictures the PO did an unsatisfactory job replacing the floor.

I pulled the motor and put it on my motorcycle trailer.

While I was doing that my SO took off the rails and snaps and started wet sanding the hull with 1000 grit.

It looks like I will be needing a left side exhaust manifold as the same PO apparently let it freeze and "fixed" the crack with JB Weld.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Rosscoe on August 09, 2015, 09:30:07 PM
Hope that's the only crack.

"unsatisfactory job"

Nicely put. Being kind

Great to have a helping hand
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 10, 2015, 08:56:32 AM
We did start the motor on muffs before I bought it, didn't see any water coming out and I did winterize it.
So hopefully that is the extent of the damage.

I got the rest of the outdrive out yesterday and removed the PO's repair work (I will post pictures later from home).
His work was not attached to the boat so it just lifted right out including the stringers!  :o

The transom was pretty solid, but still had a couple of soft spots.

Do you guys have a link to or extra information (dims) about the cradle(s) you built?

I just came up with the great idea of putting the cradle on the trailer I have for my GT160.

It will be much easier to build on then the combination bunk/roller trailer it is on now.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 10, 2015, 04:38:04 PM
As promised:
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Glastronjohn18 on August 10, 2015, 05:15:18 PM
Quote
Do you guys have a link to or extra information (dims) about the cradle(s) you built?

I posted some pics on your other thread about stringer patterns. I used 12'  2x6's. Doran said he'll post pics tonight also. Any q's  please ask.

John
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 16, 2015, 08:39:22 PM
We finally had a nice hot August weekend, so I didn't get as much done as I planned because we took the GT-160 over to a larger lake for the day on Saturday.
Today I went at the starboard side engine stringer and took the gas tank out.
My floatations boxes and foam are in good condition so I am leaving them in.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 24, 2015, 08:46:15 AM
We had a wedding to attend on Saturday and it was rainy yesterday, but I used the cover as a tent and went for it - made ok progress considering...
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: dorelse on August 24, 2015, 09:20:00 AM
Nice work.  I do have to tell you that I've never seen or heard of a flotation box not being wet when the rest of the boat is rotted...you really ought to take those out and put back in new wood and foam.  Now is the time.  Mine looked ok too, but they were soaked.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: 75starflight on August 24, 2015, 09:27:31 AM
Nice work.  I do have to tell you that I've never seen or heard of a flotation box not being wet when the rest of the boat is rotted...you really ought to take those out and put back in new wood and foam.  Now is the time.  Mine looked ok too, but they were soaked.

I agree with Doran, those boxes will be soaked in the very rear of the hull. Front half of mine were dry but the rest was extremely  wet!

On another note, I will try to get you some dimensions and pictures of what is left of my stringers plus dimensions of my front stringer template since I will be cutting in the next couple of days.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 24, 2015, 09:41:59 AM
I thought leaving them would spark some comments and was surprised when no one had anything to say.

I guess everyone's mind was on the meet!

On the Starboard side I did cut between the floor fiberglass and the box front to back and zero water came out.

I'll take a closer look, but I'm not ready to give up on leaving them yet.

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: 75starflight on August 24, 2015, 09:47:42 AM
I never hand any water come out of mine either. it just gets trapped in the foam. That old foam is horrendous for retaining moisture unlike the new foam which water flows through.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 24, 2015, 09:54:27 AM
Nice work.  I do have to tell you that I've never seen or heard of a flotation box not being wet when the rest of the boat is rotted...you really ought to take those out and put back in new wood and foam.  Now is the time.  Mine looked ok too, but they were soaked.

When I replaced the transom, stringers and floors in my '71 GT160 (in '92 without the aid of the internet showing me the way lol), I cut out the flotation boxes and the foam was dry.

So now you've heard of one  ;D

EDIT: I hope the above comes across with the humor intended. in 92 I wasn't sure if I could take the top deck off without losing the hull shape, so I managed to find a way to do the transom with it on!

Also, looking at your pictures - didn't you leave yours in?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on August 24, 2015, 10:06:31 AM
My foam was soaked, each trash bag weighed between 50-70lbs, it was horrible.  Not everyone has this experience, but many do.  As for forms/drawings, I sat on nside and cut cardboard to fit, then taped together.  Gave me the basic cuts, but still had massaging to do.  It was not a fast process.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 24, 2015, 10:09:04 AM
I never hand any water come out of mine either. it just gets trapped in the foam. That old foam is horrendous for retaining moisture unlike the new foam which water flows through.

Next weekend I'll take a hole saw to the lower rear section and get a 'core sample"

Even if it is wet I have another idea  ;D
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 24, 2015, 10:12:26 AM
On another note, I will try to get you some dimensions and pictures of what is left of my stringers plus dimensions of my front stringer template since I will be cutting in the next couple of days.

Thank you!!!

I can work from "back of napkin" drawings, maybe just a length of the stringer and height measurements every foot from where it starts to curve.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 24, 2015, 10:47:24 AM
My foam was soaked, each trash bag weighed between 50-70lbs, it was horrible.  Not everyone has this experience, but many do.  As for forms/drawings, I sat on nside and cut cardboard to fit, then taped together.  Gave me the basic cuts, but still had massaging to do.  It was not a fast process.

In a previous life I worked for myself installing/sanding/finishing hardwood floors, so while I can make the templates, I understand how long it will take.

That's why I'm hoping a kind soul can take some rudimentary measurements that I can massage from rather than starting from scratch.

As I mentioned, I will take a core sample of the foam, if it is wet it is coming out, but I haven't given up on leaving the wood or most of the wood in and taking the foam out.

Redoing the wood/fiberglass/foam to look the same as the factory is pretty involved, other solutions I have seen I don't like (but am open to suggestions).
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Hyperacme on August 24, 2015, 12:18:13 PM
Others have used foam insulation boards to make temples with, easy to shape into stringers, transom, decking and flotation boxes.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 24, 2015, 12:46:12 PM
Others have used foam insulation boards to make temples with, easy to shape into stringers, transom, decking and flotation boxes.

That is easy for the transom & floors, a little harder but not bad for bulkheads, but for the stringers you need to know where the floor is without having a floor in place.

So you have to cut maybe six to eight1" x 2" to go across and then measure down to the hull - I'm hoping to avoid that....

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: MarkS on August 24, 2015, 01:03:55 PM
When I was constructing the center stringer for my GT 150 without a pattern I used the following method;

Measure the tallest portion of the stinger and cut your board to that height.  With the hull level, lay your stringer board in the boat with the forward end against the hull.  Raise the aft end until it's level, and take a compass (like protractor and compass) and scribe the contour of the hull onto the board starting aft and moving forward.  This gives you the (almost) exact contour of the hull on the bottom of your stringer board, and pretty close to the right height. 

Don't forget to leave 1/4" for bedding material under the stringer to prevent "hard spot", if you follow that theory.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 24, 2015, 01:31:22 PM
When I was constructing the center stringer for my GT 150 without a pattern I used the following method;

Measure the tallest portion of the stinger and cut your board to that height.  With the hull level, lay your stringer board in the boat with the forward end against the hull.  Raise the aft end until it's level, and take a compass (like protractor and compass) and scribe the contour of the hull onto the board starting aft and moving forward.  This gives you the (almost) exact contour of the hull on the bottom of your stringer board, and pretty close to the right height. 

Don't forget to leave 1/4" for bedding material under the stringer to prevent "hard spot", if you follow that theory.

Hmmm....That is pretty much how you would scribe flooring to fit around a fireplace or against a wall that isn't very straight and you are right - works like a charm.

On the CVZ the walk through makes it not possible to get the uncut board over the strake and under the fiberglass at the front which means it won't be over the strake anywhere.

!/4" seems like a lot to leave for bedding??

My hull seems to have returned mostly to the correct shape now that most of the weight is out of her, but unless she sits perfectly flat on the cradle I am planning on strategically putting weight on the stringers during install to take the hook out of the hull.

If I have done my cutting right, this will not leave much bedding under the stringer at all - or am I missing something?

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: carlsoncvx18 on August 24, 2015, 01:32:35 PM
Could you take a string and run for to aft at starting points and measure
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 24, 2015, 01:41:56 PM
Could you take a string and run for to aft at starting points and measure

I almost added that to my last post - attaching it firmly enough to not sag might be difficult.

I  can see it being a "battle royale" with tape, but maybe not?

Possibly 5 minute epoxy it in place?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: MarkS on August 24, 2015, 02:10:52 PM
At the time I was doing mine, the gang on the Nat. site advised using a 1/4" cushion to prevent a "hard spot" where the wood contacts the hull.  Since then I've heard of many folks who don't follow that theory, and haven't had a problem.   I did, and had no problem either but quite possibly wasted my time doing so?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: fireman24mn on August 24, 2015, 04:15:21 PM
 I made my stringer templates from foam it went pretty fast and I had an exact template to copy onto the wood.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 24, 2015, 06:39:19 PM
I made my stringer templates from foam it went pretty fast and I had an exact template to copy onto the wood.

Looks great, how did you define where the top/floor would be?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: thedeuceman on August 26, 2015, 03:36:55 PM
i have restored 2 so far, the GT-150 had been demoed before i got it so i had to make it all up as i went, the 1900 there was nothing to make patterns from.
on both you could tell approximately where the floor was.
i used a straight edge across the hull where i wanted the bottom of the floor to be and measured from that down to where the stringer would lay about every foot or so, then used those measurements to make cardboard templates.
then i adjusted the templates so i liked how they fit and cut the wood, then more adjusting to get that to fit.
i did not get too fancy (filled any gaps on the bottom of the stringers with cabosil/resin)
on the GT i tabed the stringers in with 1 layer of 1708 biax to the top stringer, on the 1900 i did 2 layers, one to the top of the stringer, the other just 2" up (that was prob overkill)
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 27, 2015, 10:41:19 AM
i have restored 2 so far, the GT-150 had been demoed before i got it so i had to make it all up as i went, the 1900 there was nothing to make patterns from.
on both you could tell approximately where the floor was.
i used a straight edge across the hull where i wanted the bottom of the floor to be and measured from that down to where the stringer would lay about every foot or so, then used those measurements to make cardboard templates.
then i adjusted the templates so i liked how they fit and cut the wood, then more adjusting to get that to fit.
i did not get too fancy (filled any gaps on the bottom of the stringers with cabosil/resin)
on the GT i tabed the stringers in with 1 layer of 1708 biax to the top stringer, on the 1900 i did 2 layers, one to the top of the stringer, the other just 2" up (that was prob overkill)

Thanks for the response - what did you use for a straight edge? How did you make it shorter as the hull narrowed?
Are you saying that one layer of 1708 would have been enough?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: thedeuceman on August 27, 2015, 12:02:23 PM

Thanks for the response -
what did you use for a straight edge? How did you make it shorter as the hull narrowed?
i clamped to metal rulers together and adjusted the length as required.

Are you saying that one layer of 1708 would have been enough?
i suspect it would be, it originally had a thick layer of CSM and 1 piece of woven stuck on the middle between bulkheads.

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 27, 2015, 12:09:24 PM

Thanks for the response -
what did you use for a straight edge? How did you make it shorter as the hull narrowed?
i clamped to metal rulers together and adjusted the length as required.

Are you saying that one layer of 1708 would have been enough?
i suspect it would be, it originally had a thick layer of CSM and 1 piece of woven stuck on the middle between bulkheads.


Smart man  ;)

eyeing what I have cut out of my boat it looks to be only one layer of CSM on the stringers with an extra layer of mat on the motor mounts - can anybody concur?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: CVX Fever on August 27, 2015, 01:08:06 PM
Quote
eyeing what I have cut out of my boat it looks to be only one layer of CSM on the stringers with an extra layer of mat on the motor mounts - can anybody concur?

Here is a picture of my CVX18, same hull below the rub rail as your CVZ18

(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l93/blinddate/Photo%20on%208-27-15%20at%2012.35%20PM.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/blinddate/media/Photo%20on%208-27-15%20at%2012.35%20PM.jpg.html)
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: CVX Fever on August 27, 2015, 01:21:13 PM
Here's one of the motor mount. The bare wood is what was resting on the hull bottom. This is the piece that was added to the inside of the stringer to increase the width where the motor mounts were.. A third piece of wood rested on top of the stringer and the piece in the photo. Looks like they may have doubled up on the glass. The glass work in the engine bay and around the motor mounts was good and heavy in my boat. where there was some rotting the glass work was still supporting the weight of the engine.

(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l93/blinddate/Photo%20on%208-27-15%20at%2012.39%20PM.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/blinddate/media/Photo%20on%208-27-15%20at%2012.39%20PM.jpg.html)
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: CVX Fever on August 27, 2015, 01:28:56 PM
Here is part of the port stringer. The starboard was mulch. Which is funny because that's where the floor was solid. The port side of the floor was rotted badly under the front bucket seat to the point that the previous owner had welded a big aluminum plate to the seat base so there was some solid wood to screw into. By the time I got the boat that was rotted too and the seat base screws would constantly loosen up because there wasn't any wood left for them to grab onto.

The stringer is 4 3/4" inch high BTW. Best I can tell that dim. doesn't change at least up to the kick panel on my boat.


(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l93/blinddate/Photo%20on%208-27-15%20at%2012.43%20PM.jpg) (http://s94.photobucket.com/user/blinddate/media/Photo%20on%208-27-15%20at%2012.43%20PM.jpg.html)
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 31, 2015, 08:35:34 AM
That is about how much stringer I have left too!

I did manage to get one of the transom layers out in 2 pieces to use as a  template, but that one was the easy one anyway.

Forgot to take a picture, but all the wood is out, fiberglass and supplies have been ordered, construction starts next weekend!
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on September 01, 2015, 11:02:52 AM
The fiberglass supplies arrived yesterday - Joe at Merton's was extremely helpful and convinced me to go with polyester resin

I also bought a couple of gallons of his proprietary, pre-mixed PB

Today I ordered the lumber - #1 Doug Fir and 3/4" ACX

The best part is the lumber yard is delivering it to the "job site"  :)
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on September 04, 2015, 08:08:40 AM
At the time I was doing mine, the gang on the Nat. site advised using a 1/4" cushion to prevent a "hard spot" where the wood contacts the hull.  Since then I've heard of many folks who don't follow that theory, and haven't had a problem.   I did, and had no problem either but quite possibly wasted my time doing so?

So I have been doing some reading on this - another one of those subjects with varied and adamant opinions!

Here is what I took away:

It isn't a "cushion" unless you use foam or the like.

If you PB the stringers to the hull, the stringer has full structural contact with the hull the entire length, thus avoiding a hard spot.

A hard spot is where the stringer puts more pressure on a portion or "spot" of the hull than other places along the stringer.

Plywood stringers stand a better chance of having a hard spot than timber as they are harder with less flex or give.

Now the important one:

The reason you want a gap filled with PB along the entire length of a stringer rather than having the wood touch the fiberglass in spots is that the PB will shrink over time, pulling the stringer that is already in contact with the hull hard into the hull creating a hard spot.

That said, it seems unlikely to cause a problem on my (our) 18' boats with timber stringers even if there is wood to glass contact, but I am going to careful about having a reasonably even layer of PB to bed my stringers.

So thank you for you post that piqued my curiosity!

Scott

P.S. at least the transom will be installed, and glassed this weekend. May even get the stringers bedded, but not glassed.

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: MarkS on September 04, 2015, 02:53:03 PM
I felt your pain with all the info that is out there when I was rebuilding my GT, it got downright confusing at times.  (It was the first one I had done any structural repair/replacement on.)  The next one will be a little easier, once you have some of this stuff sorted out.  I used PL adhesive to be the stringers, 'cause that's what I saw on FriscoBoater's YouTube rebuild site.  (I followed it daily for a LONG time.) Others said to never use it in a boat, so who knows.  There's almost always NUMEROUS ways of accomplishing the task at hand, just have to sort through them and figure out what works for you.   Sounds to me like you're doing an excellent job of doing just that sir!
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: dorelse on September 04, 2015, 04:22:45 PM
ditto to Mark... pick a method you like and go forth!

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on September 04, 2015, 05:21:05 PM
ditto to Mark... pick a method you like and go forth!

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk


I did and I am!

Woods here and it is beautiful!

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on September 04, 2015, 05:40:32 PM
And the rest of the goods.

power-tools I used to have when I was in the trades were either sold or disposable.

So I needed some power-tools too.

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on September 05, 2015, 05:23:58 PM
Cut the transom using the original as a pattern and then scribed it to what is actually there
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on September 06, 2015, 04:55:19 PM
Self explanatory
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on September 06, 2015, 07:51:16 PM
Are you using the garboard drain for something else?  Thought about using  one for oil drain, but later decided to fill it in.  Looks like a good transom repair.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on September 08, 2015, 09:04:42 AM
Are you using the garboard drain for something else?  Thought about using  one for oil drain, but later decided to fill it in.  Looks like a good transom repair.

This in my first outdrive, so I am not sure I understand the purpose of the 2nd hole.

It was connected to what is probably a check valve on the side of the motor - cooling outlet? Drain?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on September 10, 2015, 07:00:58 PM
Hopefully this will do.

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on September 10, 2015, 11:47:20 PM
I saw a boat that had the garboard drain plug with a small chain on it that connected to a hose with a plug for draining the engine oil, but not sure if someone did that custom or if that was a factory installation.  Maybe someone else may comment?  In the end  I ended up restoring the vacuum oil drain system.   Your forms look spot on, well done.  Keep us updated, always interested in learning a better way.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on October 05, 2015, 03:49:05 PM
Well, it looks like I lost the race with the weather to get enough woodwork and fiberglassing done to continue with putting the engine and outdrive back in.

I thought if I could get  that much done, I wouldn't lose a usable month now and/or in the spring waiting for it to get warm enough to glass.

But I'm far enough behind that I still have plenty of cool weather work left - grinding, making patterns and cutting/fitting wood.

I am also considering (after I do a compression test) getting an engine stand and bringing the engine into the basement for the winter.

It is currently well covered on my motorcycle trailer.

I figure if it has good compression, I can clean and paint it, put an electronic points replacement system from Hot-spark in the distributor and who knows - maybe put a 4 barrel on it.

If I am feeling rich I might replace the exhaust manifolds (one has a crappy JB Weld repair) with some spiffy center rise ones.

It's a long winter up here - have to dream about something!
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: MarkS on October 12, 2015, 11:01:04 AM
Fall seems to be setting in early down here in GA as well Scott.  It's amazing how much stuff you can come up with to do in the colder months though, sounds like you have a good plan on keeping busy.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on October 13, 2015, 12:36:36 PM
Fall seems to be setting in early down here in GA as well Scott.  It's amazing how much stuff you can come up with to do in the colder months though, sounds like you have a good plan on keeping busy.

It's been a little nicer this week, but the GT160 is out of the water and the docks are on dry land - so ends it.
I do need to keep working on it rather than completely losing momentum...
Thanks for the encouragment
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on March 11, 2016, 09:44:41 AM
Hi everyone,

lots to report on, but it is just the buildup before the war lol.

Fall had arrived early, but it looks like spring is arriving early too!

Over the winter we acquired a sewing machine and bought 15 linear yards of vinyl.

Trying to keep it somewhat true to the seventies style, but neither of us liked the original color so we went with a lighter blue that more closely matches the light blue on the hull.

We will give the piping a shot (I bought a piping foot for the sewing machine), but it will probably be to hard for us and our sewing machine.

We are keeping the buttons, but are hoping to find a shop that will make them from material we supply rather than buying the machine and trying to hand crank out about 150 buttons!

Fortunately all of our foam, less one piece, is in good shape - if anybody has a good bow seat base foam I'd like it rather than trying to make one.

I found a navy blue cut pile marine carpet, not as deep and darker than the original, but again honoring the original style - haven't pulled the trigger on that yet.

You probably saw my other post on the cracked exhaust manifold - I just used my bonus to buy the center rise kit.

The PO had put the 2 bbl intake manifold and carb from the 305 onto the 350 - I also ordered an Edlebrock manifold, but will hold off on purchasing a marine carb until I am closer to needing it.

So I have what appears to be a recently rebuilt 2 bbl and manifold for sale if anybody needs one.

I am hoping to be back at grinding, cutting and glassing in 2-3 weeks and baring any bad luck (knock on wood) want to get it wet in June with or without an interior!

traveling next week - full speed ahead after that!
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: 75starflight on March 11, 2016, 10:39:26 AM
Good Luck Scott!  I have the itch to get back to working on my CVZ-18, but it is still march and I am going to wait to uncover her until at least the end of april or early may. I would love to be laying glass and installing the bulk heads with the temps we have had here in central Nebraska the past two weeks.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on July 11, 2016, 10:29:14 AM
So here we are well into summer and no surprise I still have a lot of work to do!

We did not have good weather here this past spring and i was traveling a lot for work.

That said, stringers are PB'd in, flooring is being cut/fitted, and we made one cushion cover!

Sorry no pics, I'll have a few soon.

I'm very sure I made getting the stringers cut and installed much harder than it needed to be, but without a template to go on, it took me forever and a day to come up with a decent way to create a template and just as long to cut, fit and glue them in.

Now making the plywood for the floors is going at a much better pace, but I am spending a good amount of time getting them to fit really nicely.

Rather than cardboard, I stapled clear plastic to the stringer, pulled it tight and then used a sharpie to mark where to cut it.

Transferred that to the wood and then just cut, trim and sand until it fits  :)
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on July 12, 2016, 06:14:33 PM
When I did my Z, the floor breaks up front.  Just forward of the floor fuel tank port, the floor go down towards the bow.  You could see it in the original stringers.  A curve under for the hull, and two angles on top.  Glad to hear your making progress, stringers, floor, and transom seemed to take forever.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 08, 2016, 09:27:57 AM
Made some more progress, coated the 2 rear and 2 side plywood floors with resin and went ahead and started glassing the stringers in.

The only bad news was that I started when nobody was home at the camp next door, but they arrived after I was committed to glassing, and I had so much resin going I think I stunk them out and they left for home  :-/

Nice folks so I try not to be that guy, but cutting, grinding, sanding, glassing all bring some bad news....
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 30, 2016, 03:16:08 PM
More progress - rear and side floors are in.

The boat is in the yard and I drag dirt into it every time I get in and out.

How do I keep it clean until sealed?

The engine compartment will have gelcoat to seal it, should the final coat of resin before the carpeting have wax added to it?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: 75starflight on August 30, 2016, 03:38:33 PM
Scott, are you putting in the front bulkhead and stringer to the bow? The CVZ-18 I am rebuilding had a bulkhead in front of the fuel tank and a small stringer that went from that bulkhead to the front of the hull.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 31, 2016, 08:01:02 AM
Scott, are you putting in the front bulkhead and stringer to the bow? The CVZ-18 I am rebuilding had a bulkhead in front of the fuel tank and a small stringer that went from that bulkhead to the front of the hull.

Yes I am, that and the one at the rear of the tank are going in this weekend.

Pretty much duplicating what the factory did.

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on August 31, 2016, 09:06:44 AM
When I restored my CVZ, I believed the stringers were original, but the floor was newer.  My stringers were, and the new ones are, continuous from transom to bow.  There is a cross in front of my tank.  I rewelded and bedlinered my tank after pressure testing as my new floor is solid side to side.  Might have made sense to allow the center to open, but instead I made rubber blocks that I epoxied in place to support the tank and allow a 3/4 gap to allow water to drain to bilge.  Let's hope no fuel leaks develop. 
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 31, 2016, 09:47:56 PM
My tank is perfect, it still even has a signature on it from when it was tested or installed at the factory.
I have already foamed under the installed floors to prevent water incursion.
I may or may not foam the gas tank in, but am not installing any drains.
Instead I will be sure that it is sealed against water.
I don't plan on adding the access ports to the tank area as I feel that they can always be added if the tank sender or fittings require service (I will install a new sender now).
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on August 31, 2016, 11:33:55 PM
Put both access ports back in, it's the only way to check for leaks, and have access to the tanks only fittings. If your center section above the tank can be removed, then I suppose you could do without them, but since mine is solid, I needed the ports.   Which, btw, I had to redo the fittings on the rear, the vent leaked at first tank fill up.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on September 01, 2016, 10:53:08 AM
I will leak test (pressure test) before sealing the tank in.

My concern with the access covers is that they will leak allowing water into a space with no drain.

My experience with drains is they do a better job of letting water in than out and are where the rot typically starts!

I can always cut the access ports in if a problem arises!

I'll agree if they are completely sealed I won't be able to detect a leak (still thinking this one through).
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on September 01, 2016, 11:05:57 AM
Yes, they probably do let some water in compared to not having them, but I figure it's a boat, you must allow water some way to get out.  It seems to always find a way in.  At TI meet, my boat filled with enough rain water that I'm sure the tank had some under it, but the channel let it all back out.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on September 01, 2016, 12:22:48 PM
I could end up changing my mind, but this is where my thinking currently is:

A self bailing Boston Whaler has an inner and outer hull.

Between them is filled with foam and there is no way for water to get in so there is no need to allow a way for water to get out.

That is how I want my floors to be, with the exception that the bilge area will have a pump rather than being self bailing.

Everything will be glassed in and cavities will be foamed.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: dorelse on September 01, 2016, 12:49:47 PM
I could end up changing my mind, but this is where my thinking currently is:

A self bailing Boston Whaler has an inner and outer hull.

Between them is filled with foam and there is no way for water to get in so there is no need to allow a way for water to get out.

That is how I want my floors to be, with the exception that the bilge area will have a pump rather than being self bailing.

Everything will be glassed in and cavities will be foamed.

Boston Whaler's are all OB's if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: thedeuceman on September 01, 2016, 12:55:44 PM
I totally agree with the enclosed foamed space's being sealed, but if there's air space on anything I've done I always put a drain.
I see your point about not putting the access covers in until you may need them, I did plan that on my 1900 but chickened out at the end and put them in anyway.
Just my 2 cents


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on September 01, 2016, 01:04:12 PM
     Just an opinion, but boats, cars, aircraft, and all have flex to them.  Add to that many of us have dug countless pounds of wet foam out of the recesses of our beloved crafts tends to favor the pessimist in me.  Any compartment sealed up will eventually leak in time, but that's really just an opinion.  I hope your plan works well, it certainly has possibilities, maybe seal an electronic moisture sensor(s) in those sealed compartments and check their conductivity over time.   The stuff not seen is usually what creeps up to get us.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on September 01, 2016, 02:03:05 PM
I appreciate the discussion!

I'm no expert - mine is just an opinion too.

From the factory the foam got wet because the poorly located (too high) drain holes let water in and most but not all of the water out IF the bilge was dry, if not it soaked in water.

when the holes got plugged up, more water was trapped.

The holes they drilled as drains were not sealed and the wood structure soaked up water too.

The fiberglassing they did was not intended to waterproof compartments and didn't....

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on September 06, 2016, 10:03:26 AM
Update: there isn't enough room under the floor for the rear tank fittings, they require the extra room provided by an access cover.

So I will install new front and rear access covers and I also put a drain hole in the rear bulkhead behind the tank.

I will put a drain plug in to prevent water from getting in, but allow a way out if required.

Both the areas to the left, right and in front of the gas tank are glassed in, sealed and foamed to prevent water intrusion and will not have drains.

I still have to cut/install the flooring over the gas tank and build up the motor mounts, but then I will be done with all of the structural repairs!

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on January 05, 2017, 10:33:01 AM
Happy New Year everyone!

So I did not get much past my last post before work travel and the weather put the hold on hull work for the winter.

I do have the engine in the basement and want to finish getting that ready.

While there hasn't really been any project creep, the project itself has been more time and work than anticipated, so I have gotten to the point where I want to make sure the engine is as good as possible (within my budget constraints) before reinstalling.

I have heard this motor run briefly, but never operated it on the water.

Last summer I did a compression check and found 7 of the 8 cylinders to be great (140 - 150 psi).

Cylinder 8 was a little soft and seemed to be leaking down.

The motor had sat for 1 - 2 years and I do not know how much it ran before that, so I pickled it with Marvel mystery oil and let it sit for the last 6 months.

I have not redone the compression test, but am looking for opinions based on the possible outcome.

1) the compression comes inline with the other cylinders - should I consider it good to go and install/run it as is or?

2) still soft - I will probably do a leakdown test and my assumption is that it is likely getting past a valve.

If so do I:

     2a) Take both heads off and have them professionally rebuilt (~>$500?)?

     2b) Clean/inspect/hand lap valves/check valve guides reinstall (<$100 gaskets and supplies)?

     2c) buy reman iron heads (~$550)?

     2d) buy new GM Performance iron Vortec heads (~$350 heads, ~$150 for vortec intake manifold)?

     2e) other?

If I go the Vortec route, will my exhaust manifolds still fit? What about distributor and other accessories that go through or mount to the new manifold?

Should I pull the timing cover and inspect and or replace timing gears/chain?

Should I replace the water pump just because?

Should I replace all external gaskets just because (no current sign of leaks)?

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on January 05, 2017, 11:10:08 AM
      Sitting at the crossroads of what choices to make for the engine.   Most of us have been there, budget is a restrictor, but I've learned that the CVZ is simply not as performance based of a hull as I had originally expected.   May be due to my hull prep, restoration work, or simply the base design.   Most folks get low to mid 50's with the 898 package, the CVX-18s get into the upper 50's with the 260.   My best so far was 64mph with a 388 ci SBC with Vortec top.   So this should give you a bit of info to help decide.  I actually may take the 260 from my Timi and put in the CVZ, and use the 388 in the Timi. It would probably take 500+ hp to push the CVZ into the 70's, takes a lot less to push a Timi there.   Now I assume you are considering the 898 which is a SBC 305.   Nothing wrong with a tear down and inspection, but I'd air up that low cylinder and determine what is causing the issue.  You can even just plug the air compressor to that hole just be aware it may want to push the piston to BDC.  Listen for air leakage, in the intake, exhaust, and crankcase(just listen at the oil fill).    You could also go back to the leak down test, and add some oil to the cylinder, if the readings pick up, then its the ring seal.  If not, likely a valve or head gasket.   A bit low on a leak down is really not too pressing an issue, you could likely run for years that way.
As for going Vortec, certainly possible, but somewhat money wasted on a 305.  Could probably find a decent running 5.7 Vortec engine and go down that road.   You could easily gain 100hp going that way.  Heck, Tim just sold his complete Merc 260 for $1000 I believe, and no one has shown up yet to get it, not sure if that deal fell through.  Good time of year to find boat/engine deals.   Bottom line, the 305 is a good motor, just don't expect stellar performance, if its broke, go another route.  If it were me, I'd either run it as is, or tear down and inspect/clean. A gasket set for SBC are common and inexpensive.  A valve job should not be that expensive for a set of stock heads, do some shopping.   
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on January 05, 2017, 12:03:08 PM
Thanks Michael,

I should have pointed out that the boat came with a 350 engine, but had the 2 bbl carb/manifold from the original 305.

The "story" is that they bought the engine off a guy who was going with a BB for more power, but that it was good.

I put center rise exhaust manifolds on it (one of the logs was cracked) and an Edelbrock 4 bbl intake (but haven't purchased a carb yet).


Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on January 05, 2017, 12:17:47 PM
Assuming the testing described above shows a problem with the head, I am leaning toward either the cheapest - home cleanup and lapping of the valves, or toward the Vortec heads because of the low price from GM performance (which would mean I have a brand new Edelbrock intake for sale that has already been painted black).

If I go that far, I might go with a new Comp Cam marine cam and lifters too.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Jason on January 05, 2017, 12:43:38 PM
I agree with Mike, if the 305 runs good as is use it. If you have to put money and effort into it, especially a Vortec swap which is probably the best route, put your money into a 350.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on January 05, 2017, 01:26:04 PM
I agree with Mike, if the 305 runs good as is use it. If you have to put money and effort into it, especially a Vortec swap which is probably the best route, put your money into a 350.

Hi Jason, my bad, I should have noted right off that the engine in question is not the original and is a 350.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on January 05, 2017, 01:30:27 PM
      Yes, having an LT bottom end 350 does change the perspective a bit.  Converting to Vortec is worthwhile, but I believe it may be more an asset on a street engine using a camshaft that can take advantage of the Vortec heads higher flow characteristics.   Not saying its not a good swap, its what I run, and several others do as well, but the power output will be less than the same engine in street trim.   A mild shave, 3 angle valve job, electronic ignition, and a decent intake with 4 bbl should push that 350 into the 275-300 HP range in marine form which is technically the limit of the alpha drive anyways.  The CVZ hull will perform admirably with that level of power, and reliability and fuel economy will be acceptable unless your into the 4 bbl all the time.  I suppose what I'm driving at is that if your current heads are functional and rebuildable, and you have a LT 4bbl manifold then you would save a bunch going that route.  The vortec route, your dropping $800+ to make the conversion.  Or maybe you have a great line on Vortec heads I haven't heard about?  Summit has them for about $330.00ea  Got mine from the boneyard and had them worked, still cost about $500 before I was done.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on January 05, 2017, 03:23:47 PM
$314 each delivered is the cheapest price I have found for new Vortec heads (Amazon).

Rem LT heads (I am using your terminology and assume these are the std. port heads) are $399/pair and another $50 to upgrade to 2.02 x 1.60 valves (Aerohead Racing) - are the bigger valves worth it?

Looking for advise, but my assumption going into this topic was I would see where the air is going and (assuming it is a valve) fix the head myself.

If I find a crack or other reasons not to clean up these heads, going with the Aeroheads is the next cheapest solution - if I do, are the bigger valves worth it? Or would it be worth the extra $3-400 for the Vortec heads/manifold?

Is going up a notch in cam specs worth doing?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on January 05, 2017, 04:07:49 PM
       Do some sniffing around, you should be able to find a decent set of heads for SBC for cheap.  The larger valves(2.02) would be a waste since our engines just don't see the RPM a street engine would.  As for camshaft, you really can't go too radical in a marine application as too much overlap will suck water in from the wet exhaust.  A good RV/torque type camshafts seem to work best.   Unless the current cam is flat, I'd probably stick with it for now.  Most cams are stamped on the end, you never know till ya look, or get out the degree wheel and dial indicator and map it your self.  Engine building has always been a "sky is the limit" kinda deal, but with some research you'll find the engines with impressive figures don't seem to last long in marine applications.  If your stock heads are sound you can get them rebuilt in the $200.00 range, double that approximation if you need new guides.   Sounds like you know your way around an engine, pull them apart and look them over.   Keep everything organized.  You can always take them in in parts which is what I do, and I ask to get them back in parts. Saves a lot of labor when all they do is tank, inspect, and grind.   I like to lap and check, clean up flash, port match, set spring heights, etc.....
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: DL-North on January 05, 2017, 08:28:56 PM
New guy here, but have a lot of years working in engine development.

Hand lapping a valve is a waste of time, if you have a leaking valve. It won't remove enough material to make a seat round again.
Spend the money to have it ground.

Dan
and I'd probably not spend much time or money on a 305


 
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on January 05, 2017, 09:30:35 PM
I don't lap to create a seal, only to check the margins. 
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on January 06, 2017, 01:05:29 PM
So if the larger valves aren't worth it, is there any real advantage to port matching and seat blending the heads?

Looks like I will do another compression check this weekend. if it is better i will leave it be, if it leaks down I will strip down and investigate.

If the heads are repairable I will, if not I will replace them with remanufactured heads of the same specs.

Probably stay with the stock cam, but might go to this Comp Cam:

COMP Cams Comp Cams Xtreme Marine Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshafts
Xtreme Marine Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft
Chevy Small Block 262-400ci 1955-98
Lift: .447"/.462"
Duration: 256°/262°
Lobe Separation Angle: 112°
RPM Range: 1000-5000

I have an Edelbrock manifold and will likely go with an Edelbrock marine carb

I have the stock distributor, but will replace the points with Hot-Spark electronic module

I have added new center rise exhaust manifolds

If the heads come off I will also replace the timing cover/water pump/oil pan gaskets to avoid any leaks and allow for inspection (might do this anyway).

I don't want to spend a ton of money, but I have money to spend and I want a turn key reliable motor with good performance.

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: carlsoncvx18 on January 06, 2017, 01:47:19 PM
I would check compression find out where the leak is , if there is one.

Running a stock motor should give you in the mid 50 range.

If it is the heads that are the problem and you want to spend a little more money vortec heads and the cam you mentioned is what I am running in my cvx 18. That cam is the same as the old 327 /350 hp cam. 

Been running that combo for 5 yrs with no problems other than outdrive issues which I have had plenty of.

Good luck
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on January 06, 2017, 02:53:36 PM
       That is the cam that I'm running and have been pleased with it.   Lots of snake oil salesmen in the camshaft world, but I think you will be pleased with that one.  Port matching helps at all rpm ranges.  Larger valves and better flowing heads will help, but weigh the costs is my point.  One item to consider is the distributor since we have discussed yours being a 350, but was it a car engine before?  The reason that I ask, is that the Dist. needs to be an all centrifugal advance unit, no vac advance unless your carb can supply the vac signal.  I rebuilt the 898 merc dizzy on mine and tuned the curve to be all in at 2200 rpm running a total of 28 degrees for break in.  Moved up to 30 degrees this year, so I may go up to 32-34 with some testing this year.  I don't get out as much as I'd like to.   BTW, found some heads on craigslist for $100-125 a pair, indicating Christmas bills must be starting to hit.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on January 06, 2017, 03:05:14 PM
Thanks for the info!

All indications are that it was a mercruiser 260 engine fitted with all the accessories from the original 898/305 including the mechanical advance distributor (i.e. no indications the engine was ever anything but black).

Judging by the cracked but fixed with epoxy exhaust log, I would say that they likely did not winterize the motor and froze the 305.

Depending on what I find this weekend, I might be searching for heads on Craigslist too! Or as you suggested, I will disassemble and clean myself and just have the shop do the seat and valve grinding.

I think some more advance will wake your motor up, but understand why you are making several small advance changes!
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on January 17, 2017, 01:18:03 PM
Ok, so short history before I bring you up to speed and ask for advice.
I bought the boat 2 years ago and it had sat unused for or lightly used for 2 or more years.
It came with what was supposed to be a mercruiser 260 from another boat with unknown hours or history, but ran on muffs.
I have verified from the block number that it is in fact a 350 engine, but virtually all external parts, intake, carb, distributor, exhaust, even the valve covers came off of the 305.

After the first year outside, I took the engine out and put it in a heated basement without ever trying to start it again.
I did a compression check but did put a small amount of oil in each cylinder because it had been sitting so long.

I cranked the engine over quite a bit, but never added more oil and I got 140-150 on all cylinders except one that  was 130 - 135.
Jump forward one year, I have a small compressor and decided to redo the compression check and at least attach the compressor to listen to where the air is going.

I had put some marvel mystery oil in each hole a year ago, but did not add more oil to the cylinders for the retest.
This time I go this:
#1 150
#2 60
#3 120
#4 130
#5 150
#6 150
#7 100
#8 150

I did not get around to doing a leakdown on all of the cylinders, but did test #1 and #2 and i could here air in the intake in both cases and it really didn't sound much different. I think I need to finish doing the leakdown test (or do I?), but am I likely looking at cracked rings in #2 or might the rings have stuck themselves in the groove?

Assuming the pressure goes up when i add oil what do I do?

Remanufactured long block? Plenty of options out there - how do I find a good one at a good price (I found one as low as $1500)?

Buy a rotating assembly kit, have the heads done and the block bored? If so is it worth going to a 383? Similar costs to a reman (maybe even a bit more, but at least I know what I have).

Do the heads, hone and re-ring and call it good? Cheapest option, but.....

Buy a "good" long or short block on Craigslist? Ok, this is probably even cheaper.



Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on January 17, 2017, 01:43:33 PM
     Since the compression checks have resulted in low readings versus the readings you had previously tells me the rings have likely taken a set.  Your options are varied, but honestly, without putting it in the boat and wringing the cobwebs out of it, its hard to tell if it really needs work or not.  Rings set, lifters bleed down, seals dry out, etc.....   Running it on a stand really imposes no load, so getting the rings to move might be a problem.   If it were me, I'd either run it as is, tune it up and see all the while saving my pennies for bad news, or do a complete tear down and inspection since its winter and not much else is going on boating wise.   
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on January 17, 2017, 03:02:09 PM
Thanks Michael,
Should I use more MMO to try and release the rings or maybe pour some Seafoam instead?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on January 17, 2017, 03:54:27 PM
    The MMO will function as a better cylinder lubricant and preservative for storage.  Neither product, IMHO, would work to break rings loose just by sitting.   Combustion pressure on the backside of the ring does that.  Run it, let it cool down, then check compression.  Its somewhat difficult for me to tell you an exact course of action, because there is not just one way to do it.  All depends on your goals and budget.  You want ultimate power and reliability and have $15K laying around, well that's one path.  You want decent power, reliability, and have a budget of $1000.00, well that's possible too.  I'm just not certain your engine is bad or in need of full rebuild because a few compression points are low.  The CVZ/CVX design allows for fairly quick engine swaps, I'd probably save my money, and run what ya got at least to test things.   Now if you come across a great deal, well maybe that is the way to go, but then your never certain just how good that engine is.   A tear down and inspection would tell you everything you need to know, but you need the tools and experience or someone who can do that for you.  Getting to know a local machinist or good mechanic is a good thing.  Beer money spent wisely can yield great things(should be a sign in my shop)
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Glastronjohn18 on January 17, 2017, 04:42:09 PM
Quote
Getting to know a local machinist or good mechanic is a good thing.  Beer money spent wisely can yield great things(should be a sign in my shop)

What great advice Mike. That's probably why my boat projects are at a stand still......not spending enough beer money.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on January 23, 2017, 12:43:06 PM
    The MMO will function as a better cylinder lubricant and preservative for storage.  Neither product, IMHO, would work to break rings loose just by sitting.   Combustion pressure on the backside of the ring does that.  Run it, let it cool down, then check compression.  Its somewhat difficult for me to tell you an exact course of action, because there is not just one way to do it.  All depends on your goals and budget.  You want ultimate power and reliability and have $15K laying around, well that's one path.  You want decent power, reliability, and have a budget of $1000.00, well that's possible too.  I'm just not certain your engine is bad or in need of full rebuild because a few compression points are low.  The CVZ/CVX design allows for fairly quick engine swaps, I'd probably save my money, and run what ya got at least to test things.   Now if you come across a great deal, well maybe that is the way to go, but then your never certain just how good that engine is.   A tear down and inspection would tell you everything you need to know, but you need the tools and experience or someone who can do that for you.  Getting to know a local machinist or good mechanic is a good thing.  Beer money spent wisely can yield great things(should be a sign in my shop)

I am going to buy a boroscope that works with my iPhone and take a look inside the motor.
If I see something distressing I will repair/replace the heads or get a long block as appropriate.

If not, I'll mount the engine on an engine stand so I can level the cylinder bank and start a treatment of MMO.
It is still several months away from going back in the boat.

Thanks for your feedback!

Scott
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 09, 2017, 10:52:29 AM
So work travel, weather, life and other projects have gotten in the way, but I am starting to get back on it!

Time to cut the keyhole and am looking for advice on the best jigsaw blade and technique.

While cutting wood in general with my jigsaw, the cuts are not always the same on the bottom of the cut as on the top I would assume due to blade deflection - am I just cutting to fast or is there some other technique I am missing?

What about drilling the bolt mounting holes true and square?

Most of my other screw ups can be fixed or covered, but not this one - so I need to get it right the first time!

Thanks and "Hi"!

Scott
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on August 09, 2017, 02:04:39 PM
      A jig is available for the keyhole, but it is a bit pricey.   when I did mine, I marked it with a paper template, then drilled out all the turns in the pattern.  I went about 1/2 deep with a 3/16 bit with a hand drill, then used a 3/8" bellhanger bit(24" long) with a 2" thick aluminum guide block to insure the bit cut square to the transom.   There is a tool to do this, I just don't own one.  A good small square can work as well.   Take your time.   Then used a jig saw with long course blade and went slowly.  You have to finish a bit with a carbide burr to shape the area where the steering arm travels at the top, or your turning angle will be limited slightly.  I just used the grinder to radius the rest of the shape.   You must reseal the now open wood pores to prevent rot.   
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 09, 2017, 03:44:11 PM
Thanks Michael,

I have the original opening in the hull as a template for cutting, my concern was the inside of the transom not matching - I will drill out the corners using a guide block to keep it true rather than trying to cut them with the saw (good point)

I was already thinking about making a guide block for drilling at work using a drill press and will use it for drilling the mounting holes too - thanks for the confirmation.

I recall the upper corners were angled outward (on the inside) for clearance and will drill or grind accordingly - tight turns are required for docking and skier recovery!

The bad news is it is not looking like I will get her wet this season

The good news is that it gives me enough time and money to consider re-powering with a crate motor rather than do all this work only to be disappointed in the way she runs

Scott

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on August 09, 2017, 04:08:21 PM
     Nothing wrong with crate engines per se, just make sure it comes with some form of warranty.  Shawn(fireman24mn) purchased a complete stroker engine to go in his refurbished 23, keep an eye on his thread.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 09, 2017, 05:57:39 PM
     Nothing wrong with crate engines per se, just make sure it comes with some form of warranty.  Shawn(fireman24mn) purchased a complete stroker engine to go in his refurbished 23, keep an eye on his thread.

I do have some anxiety over finding a rebuilder that offers a consistent, reliable product.

It makes me consider rebuilding what I have.

What do you think of getting a brand new Chevrolet motor and swapping in a marine cam and brass freeze plugs?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on August 09, 2017, 11:58:22 PM
I doubt most street engines, factory specs, will come with too radical of cam.  Just ask, they will tell ya.  Duration is key, try to stay under roughly 285.  A 280 is a fine rv type torque cam.  You could run steel frost plugs, but they will rust in time since there is no additives in the coolant.  Easiest to change when on a stand.  Jegs and Summit offer good engines for the price.  Costly things are the marine dizzy, fuel pump, carb, starter, etc..   
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 10, 2017, 08:32:30 AM
I've been looking at Jegs and Summit all along, they both have good products and excellent service!

The new Chevrolet Performance engine is attractive because it is brand new, not rebuilt, for about the same money, but they clearly call out "not for marine use".

http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Performance/809/12681429/10002/-1 (http://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Performance/809/12681429/10002/-1)

My assumption is because of the cam and freeze plugs, as it is only a long block.

Luckily I have all of those costly marine parts except for the 4bbl carb (the manifold and carb from the original 305 were put on the 350 it came with, but I already bought a 4bbl manifold).
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: dorelse on August 10, 2017, 09:30:08 AM
I'm not sure if this is helpful...but...when I rebuilt my CVZ, I asked around and found a highly recommended engine shop in town with experience rebuilding marine engines.  I was quoted $1700 for a mine (granted it was a 305) and I brought them nothing.  They had a mercruiser block, heads and parts already done and prepped and essentially put it together for me, intake, distributor, plugs & wires, everything.  For an extra $150, they rebuilt my carb, timed it and I walked out of there 2 weeks later with an engine I could drop into Goldie.

(Through a lucky break, they knocked $500 off the price, so my out the door price was $1350.) 

If you find the right local shop, you might come out ahead.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 10, 2017, 09:48:47 AM
Thanks for the reply, it is helpful and discussion worthy,

I do have a highly regarded local shop that has done work on my streetbike and my brothers 8 second dragbike.

I have and am considering it, and it is fun when you are not in a rush to build an engine, but it does not save any money over just having one dropped in my driveway ready to go.

I am also concerned that I would spend a couple hundred dollars only to find out the block or heads are unusable.

This is what happened with the motorcycle jugs I dropped off to be honed (it cost me $100 to have the gaskets machined off before he could jig them and put torque plates to measure the bore which ended up not being round - trust me there was no other way to get the base gaskets off without damaging the jugs)
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 10, 2017, 09:53:08 AM
I should add as an update that what is left of the structural rebuild is:

install/glass motor mounts (wood is cut)

Install center section of floor over gas tank

glass over entire floor

cut transom keyhole


Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: fireman24mn on August 10, 2017, 01:52:22 PM
I bought a 383 and had it shipped to me my total cost with shipping was just under 3,300. It was a long block with intake, valve covers, oil pan, balancer, and timing cover.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 10, 2017, 02:01:57 PM
I bought a 383 and had it shipped to me my total cost with shipping was just under 3,300. It was a long block with intake, valve covers, oil pan, balancer, and timing cover.

I've been following your build - beautiful and an inspiration to keep going!

I don't want to hurt my outdrive and my budget and time (not to mention skill set) for the entire project is probably 1/4 of yours, so a healthy 350 close to, but less than 300 HP is what I am after

I missed who built your motor and where you bought it?

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 10, 2017, 02:04:56 PM
Oh and I showed the video of you spraying clear on the flake to my girlfriend, who is now repainting furniture with a spray gun, to show her how to properly use the gun and keep a wetted edge  ;D
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: fireman24mn on August 10, 2017, 02:36:07 PM
I've been following your build - beautiful and an inspiration to keep going!

I don't want to hurt my outdrive and my budget and time (not to mention skill set) for the entire project is probably 1/4 of yours, so a healthy 350 close to, but less than 300 HP is what I am after

I missed who built your motor and where you bought it?

It is a guy out of Texas his Name is Herb and he sells them on Ebay.  I found his name on a couple forums before I ever seen it on Ebay.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Rosscoe on August 13, 2017, 08:04:58 AM
You can easily get 300 up out of a SB 350
I did with basically a cam. Throw on some vortec heads and intake, and you're over that. I would recommend having it balanced since they get run much harder than in a car.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on January 13, 2018, 04:00:58 PM
Progress!
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Chippy on February 10, 2018, 08:02:05 PM
Hopefully this will do.

Nope. Mine had a hose going to the rear most bulkhead just behind the gas tank. It was a drain from the rear bulkhead forward. However you could see the hole and the fitting was an inch higher than the floor so water would never completely drain out. I’m pretty sure just another reason my stringers were shot. Sorry for late response.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on February 26, 2018, 09:01:15 AM
More progress!
From the pile of rotted wood I was able (barely) to make templates
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Chippy on February 28, 2018, 02:56:48 PM
Thx for posting the pics of your interior work. Your inspiration for me to get going on mine.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on February 28, 2018, 03:12:58 PM
Thx for posting the pics of your interior work. Your inspiration for me to get going on mine.

Hopefully you have better templates!
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on March 25, 2018, 07:18:41 PM
Progress
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on March 10, 2019, 04:28:38 PM
Hey guys,

Haven't posted in awhile, but some work has been progressing

Her are a couple pictures of the first completed seat

Linda and I sewed it on a home machine and I even made the buttons

We couldn't match the original blue or the hull so we went with the lighter blue of the spear

Our vinyl was to thick to even consider the piping, but I didn't like it anyway and it is too much work (also leaves a line on your legs)
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Hyperacme on March 10, 2019, 06:12:20 PM
Looks great !
Nice work ...
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Oldfishguy on March 10, 2019, 09:39:23 PM

That is nice wok.  You matched the style of that era perfectly.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: RedOctober89 on March 11, 2019, 07:12:56 AM
wow that is amazing work!
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on March 11, 2019, 05:09:48 PM
Nicely crafted, matches the era of original well.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on March 31, 2019, 01:27:31 PM
Here is more detail on the almost finished second seat

By omitting the factory piping on the shell ridge, you can stretch and staple it with one piece

The bottom front is wrapped in a second piece

The seat cushions will get held in place by the strings holding the buttons
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Hyperacme on March 31, 2019, 02:15:16 PM
Looks GREAT Scott !
Mind if I add your pictures to the "CVX seat" thread ?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on April 01, 2019, 09:24:59 AM
Looks GREAT Scott !
Mind if I add your pictures to the "CVX seat" thread ?

not at all
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Hyperacme on April 01, 2019, 09:31:29 AM
Thank you !
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on April 02, 2019, 10:11:52 AM
So I've been meaning to ask you guys about seat height - does anybody raise the seats?

Did the factory have them bolted to a flat floor or was there a raised area?

I'm shorter at about 5'6" and prefer to be looking slightly over the windshield rather than through it and the factory bases seam awfully short

Thanks
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Oldfishguy on April 02, 2019, 12:59:48 PM

I use a portable throw cushion to sit on as it keeps the wear off of the old vinyl. And then if your in traffic or pulling a kid on a tube or such I’m on my knee waaay above the windshield for visibility.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Hyperacme on April 02, 2019, 02:21:08 PM
I added 2 extra inches of foam to driver side cushion when I rebuilt mine.
Shouldn't some one make adjustable height seat bases ?
Or ..
Add wood stacks to bottom of your seat bases.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: hemi RT on April 02, 2019, 03:42:18 PM
I added 2 extra inches to driver side cushion when I rebuilt mine.
Shouldn't some one make adjustable height seat bases ?
Or ..
Add wood stacks to bottom of your seat bases.

They do make a pivoting/ height adjustable pedestal style seat base but from what I have seen these are very expensive. I have built new seat boxes to raise the seats for shorter people or people that want to sit up higher.  I even made a removable riser box so it could be removed when necessary.   
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on April 04, 2019, 11:30:35 AM
I have built new seat boxes to raise the seats for shorter people or people that want to sit up higher.  I even made a removable riser box so it could be removed when necessary.   

Do you have pictures?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 26, 2019, 03:24:24 PM
So I had good progress this year and will add some new pictures soon, but the reality is that the boating season will  start to wind down quickly here in the Northeast and my CVZ is unlikely to make it into the water this year  :-[

I think I have a realistic plan before winter of:
mounting the gas tank
install the floor over it and finish the glass work
mounting the internal/external engine/outdrive mounts
sand/buff/polish the entire hull
clean/polish/mount all external hardware including the windshields to get as much as possible out of the basement

This way in the spring it will be ready for the motor/outdrive and interior and she will look like a beautiful boat again (which will be good for motivation)

Over the course of the winter I will finish building/upholstering the interior (all downhill now)

The good news is that I think I am going to tear down the engine and rebuild it with my local machine shop over the winter as well

I've just come to far to put an unknown engine into all of my hard work

I will also service the outdrive and make sure it is ready as well
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: catchnedge on August 26, 2019, 09:02:18 PM
Scott, my CVX-20 seats were a little low for me and my wife (looked through edge of window or lower), so for many years we just used throw cushions. But, they didn't fit particularly well. So eventually we made up some 2" cushions in the shape of the seat base, with a 3-4" lip in the back arch that pushes snugly down and in between the seat base and seat back to hold it in place. Easily removed if not needed for a taller driver or riding in winter, etc., but easily installed when wanted which for us is pretty much all the time. It seemed an easy solution for us and something I thought you may be interested in. I will take pictures of it next time at storage/boat if you want.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 27, 2019, 08:45:19 AM
Scott, my CVX-20 seats were a little low for me and my wife (looked through edge of window or lower), so for many years we just used throw cushions. But, they didn't fit particularly well. So eventually we made up some 2" cushions in the shape of the seat base, with a 3-4" lip in the back arch that pushes snugly down and in between the seat base and seat back to hold it in place. Easily removed if not needed for a taller driver or riding in winter, etc., but easily installed when wanted which for us is pretty much all the time. It seemed an easy solution for us and something I thought you may be interested in. I will take pictures of it next time at storage/boat if you want.

Please do, I think I will have plenty of material to make booster cushions with

Thanks
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: catchnedge on September 28, 2019, 07:44:59 AM
Fits snug between seat back and bottom, easy in easy out.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on October 01, 2019, 09:41:27 AM
thanks, the pictures are very helpful!
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on October 01, 2019, 09:59:23 AM
So another season has come and gone without getting the CVZ in the water  :-[

But the gas tank is in, the floor and motor mounts installed, just a small area left to cover with fiberglass mat and I will pretty much be done with structural wood and fiberglass.

Depending on how the weather holds, i may try to sand/buff so I can get all of the rails, windshield(s), and hardware back on (i.e. out of the basement).

Over the winter I will finish the interior and I think I am going to disassemble and rebuild the mystery motor

I've done so much work over such a long time, I think it is worth the peace of mind to go through it.

Rebuilding the existing motor has the advantage of spreading the expense out over several months, let's me pick the cam and components, and have some control over quality (I always suspect the quality of crate motors - will you get a good one or a bad one?).

I will do the same to major wear components of the outdrive - recommendations on what to just do/replace versus what to just inspect are appreciated....
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on February 18, 2020, 09:17:53 AM
More progress,

Back seat still needs the buttons/pillows attached, but is getting close.

Because the engine cover and sundeck pillows hinge on this, it was more of a crux then i thought it would be.

I could have done better with the last staple line, but am resisting the urge to fix them as you cannot see it with the pillows attached.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Hyperacme on February 18, 2020, 02:38:21 PM
Looks GREAT !
Turned the last picture ..
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on February 19, 2020, 08:33:56 AM
Looks GREAT !
Turned the last picture ..

Thanks!
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: RedOctober89 on February 20, 2020, 01:48:31 PM
wow that looks awesome! upholstery is not an easy task!
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: demian5 on February 20, 2020, 03:10:12 PM
Because the engine cover and sundeck pillows hinge on this, it was more of a crux then i thought it would be.

How about building a aluminum bracket for the mounting? I did across the hull on my cvx16ss behind the seat and it kinda acted like a bulkhead to add structure to that part of the hull. Plus I can pull the seat without having to pull the engine cover first. And the engine cover stays put and wont drift down as the wood gets old.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on February 21, 2020, 07:56:04 AM
How about building a aluminum bracket for the mounting? I did across the hull on my cvx16ss behind the seat and it kinda acted like a bulkhead to add structure to that part of the hull. Plus I can pull the seat without having to pull the engine cover first. And the engine cover stays put and wont drift down as the wood gets old.

I may end up doing something like that just to make access easier, thanks.

The crux part of it was that the seat wasn't touching the floor, it was resting on the angled section of hull.

Fixing that also meant insuring that it is the right height and level so everything (cushions and engine cover) lines up correctly.

I've learned from doing this interior (the entire boat really) that it is good to have the factory wood so you can see how it was built, but it is so poorly cut that you are better off measuring and fitting to your boat rather than making an exact copy of a crappy factory cut.

The best example of this are the simple sun deck cushions next to the engine cover.

They are a simple shape cut from one piece of plywood and one piece of 2x4 - laying the originals on top of each other showed they varied by as much as 1/2" - 3/4" in places.

Worse, one lined up with the fiberglass deck sort of ok, the other one wasn't even close.

Of course the top deck of the boat wasn't even the same side to side, so each one had to be fitted to where it was going.

Maybe I'm just too OCD about some of this stuff  :o
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on February 26, 2020, 09:23:06 AM
So I finally broke down the motor to see what I have and find out why the compression is low on a few cylinders.

The good news - the motor is a 350 bored 0.030 over and appears to be very, very low hours, possibly never making it to the water or for just one trip.

The block has 4 bolt mains - Assuming Mercruiser 260's did not have 4 bolt mains, it is a car motor that has been converted.

The bad - a lot of milky jelled oil (expected from sitting semi covered outdoors for years) clogging up the oil pickup and lifters.

Also if it is a car motor, I do not know what cam it is (no discernible part numbers - not interested in making a ton of measurements to figure out).

The really bad - although the engine is "fresh", something happened - not cleaned properly, dry start, or who knows, but all of the visibly new crank bearings look like the below and the crank doesn't look any better  :'(

So the plan is a new crank and bearings, rings, cam, lifters, valve springs, and gaskets.....

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on February 26, 2020, 04:08:55 PM
If the copper is visible, the bearings are toast.  Water in the oil can do this fairly quickly.  Not a whole lot of difference between car and boat engines when discussing common engines in Classic Glastrons.  You will be disassembling the entire engine anyway, so unless just for your own interest, you find some numbers on the cam, I wouldn't worry about it's specs.  If the crank bearings are that bad, rods, cam, and lifters likely will not look good either.  Full rebuild could be $3k+ depending on the power levels you look for, might consider a drop in long block, would save time and money, but you will have lots of cleaning to do.  Good time to upgrade fuel and ignition system.   
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on February 27, 2020, 09:01:38 AM
If the copper is visible, the bearings are toast.  Water in the oil can do this fairly quickly.  Not a whole lot of difference between car and boat engines when discussing common engines in Classic Glastrons.  You will be disassembling the entire engine anyway, so unless just for your own interest, you find some numbers on the cam, I wouldn't worry about it's specs.  If the crank bearings are that bad, rods, cam, and lifters likely will not look good either.  Full rebuild could be $3k+ depending on the power levels you look for, might consider a drop in long block, would save time and money, but you will have lots of cleaning to do.  Good time to upgrade fuel and ignition system.

Oh the bearings are past toast, and the crank could be turned, but I am just going to buy new

The engine is fully apart, I cannot find any numbers on the cam, but the cam bearings were spared the carnage and don't even look like it was run

Lifters are not scored, but jelled up, cylinders are not scored, pistons and heads look great

So fortunately it isn't going to be anywhere close to $3k or even the price of a crate long block

I am replacing all gaskets and seals

I don't like the junkie stock headbolts, everything else looks good

As far as fuel and ignition:

The boat came with the original 305 manifold and 2 barrel carb (anybody need a really clean 2 barrel?)

I already replaced the manifold with an Edelbrock, and was already planing on buying a new 4 barrel carb, so I did not include that price below

Distributor is in great shape so I am just going to change to the Hot-Spark electronic ignition replacement for points, again a long planned change not included below

I don't think I am missing anything:

cam & lifters $218.00
springs         $66.00
rings            $120.00
timing chain $35.00
crankshaft   $193.00
bearings       $40.00
gaskets        $43.00
headbolts     $145.00
valve seals   $22.00
TOTAL       $882
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on February 27, 2020, 11:32:53 AM
A couple things I noticed.  If you're going with new Pistons rings, you need to hone the cylinders.  Just guessing from the price you listed you are ordering moly rings?   $43 for a full gasket set likely doesn't include stainless head gaskets?  Sure it can be done, but our beloved engines circulate lake water, not additive rich coolant.  Maybe you have closed cooling?   Could save on the springs if you check them, but stem seals are a good idea.  Any machine shop work?  Valve job, guides, block hone, rod checking/resize/bolts, frost plugs, oil pump, remote filter, oil drain, water pump, fuel pump, starter, harm balancer for new crank, balancing?   It's amazing how all the little things really add up. 
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: carlsoncvx18 on February 27, 2020, 12:46:21 PM
I have been running plain old felpro head gaskets in my 18 for 9 yrs never a problem.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on February 27, 2020, 01:23:02 PM
Fresh water boats don't seem to mind, besides which, the last set of fel-pros I bought now come with SS.   I guess I assumed since the OP is from New Hampshire his CVZ might see salt or brackish water.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on February 28, 2020, 07:42:16 AM
Fresh water boats don't seem to mind, besides which, the last set of fel-pros I bought now come with SS.   I guess I assumed since the OP is from New Hampshire his CVZ might see salt or brackish water.

It is a good possibility that it may see some salt/brackish water, but that would be a rare occurrence (likely less than once a year) as the boat is kept on a lake in Maine.

I'll see what the head gaskets are and look at what SS costs if they are not included - no harm if they aren't too pricey, otherwise I'm not that concerned.

As I mentioned this is a very low hour to no hour motor that was bored .030 over, so I am going to just hone it.

What are your thoughts on file to fit vs. no file rings? (the price I listed was for file to fit - yes I have a ring grinder)

I'll take the heads apart this weekend, but they appear fresh as well. Springs are cheap and easy, so considering the sit time of this motor, I'd rather just replace them.

So, other than honing, and possibly lapping the valves (more as a check), I don't plan on any machine work.

thanks for the continued input,

Scott
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on February 28, 2020, 09:15:11 AM
In your application no-file rings would work well. Although I check anyway.  I prefer file to fit in applications where cylinder pressures are higher, such as nitrous and supercharged applications.  Sounds like you still have a decent cross hatch with no perceived witness marks, a simple hand hone would suffice to allow the new rings to seat.  Sounds like a solid plan.   Any chance you would bring yourself or CVZ to MN in August?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on February 28, 2020, 09:26:51 AM
In your application no-file rings would work well. Although I check anyway.  I prefer file to fit in applications where cylinder pressures are higher, such as nitrous and supercharged applications.  Sounds like you still have a decent cross hatch with no perceived witness marks, a simple hand hone would suffice to allow the new rings to seat.  Sounds like a solid plan.   Any chance you would bring yourself or CVZ to MN in August?

Thanks for the advice.

I'd love to come to MN one of these years, but it is 1500 miles just to Minneapolis!

That isn't a deal killer, but definitely make it more expensive and time consuming.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on February 28, 2020, 09:39:15 AM
Could always fly in, always a good turn out of Glastrons, and great people as well, lots of fun.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: dorelse on February 28, 2020, 09:56:04 AM
I drove to my brother's in Dover, NH last summer...that is a haul!

Thanks for the advice.

I'd love to come to MN one of these years, but it is 1500 miles just to Minneapolis!

That isn't a deal killer, but definitely make it more expensive and time consuming.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Hyperacme on February 28, 2020, 10:20:23 AM
There are some guys down in NC & SC thinking about a meet, but that's quite a drive also.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on February 28, 2020, 12:25:15 PM
I drove to my brother's in Dover, NH last summer...that is a haul!

Dover is the midpoint between where I live in NH and the lake in Maine. I used to live there too and I still work nearby.....
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on February 28, 2020, 12:30:09 PM
There are some guys down in NC & SC thinking about a meet, but that's quite a drive also.

We had a small meet up here in NH on Winnipesaukee  way back around 2000.

I'd consider another one, Maybe on Sebago in Maine this time, but I need to get the boat running reliably and in the water first!

I swear - every job I finish reveals 3 more jobs I hadn't considered.... :o
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Hyperacme on February 28, 2020, 01:33:03 PM
" I swear - every job I finish reveals 3 more jobs I hadn't considered.... "

I think we've all been there … LOL
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on February 29, 2020, 05:01:04 PM
Took the heads apart today and everything was looking ok until the last exhaust valve  :(

It was the one letting the weather in and while it didn't show it while the valve was in, once out the seat and head really are unsalvageable

So I am throwing in the towel on this motor and going for a marine crate motor

Should I go with the 2 bolt main 260 HP or the 4 bolt main 275 HP? The price difference is under $150
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: carlsoncvx18 on February 29, 2020, 05:32:09 PM
Spend the $150.  But just because it is 4 bolt main doesn’t give it 15 more horse power. Wonder what they do different to get it? 
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on February 29, 2020, 07:56:29 PM
Not sure the difference, but 15 extra HP for $150 and 4-bolt main caps is worth the extra money IMHO. 
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on March 01, 2020, 06:40:53 AM
Not sure the difference, but 15 extra HP for $150 and 4-bolt main caps is worth the extra money IMHO.

That's what I thought too

I think it is just a different cam, I'm going to get more info

Thanks
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: ces308 on March 04, 2020, 06:58:36 PM
Scott.... I have been reading your saga on the boat and feel your pain! Thankfully, I only had the deal with the transom and replacing stuff on the interior. Your interior rebuild looks great ! This site has some very talented people in it ! Can’t wait to see it finished!
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on March 05, 2020, 08:25:37 AM
Scott.... I have been reading your saga on the boat and feel your pain! Thankfully, I only had the deal with the transom and replacing stuff on the interior. Your interior rebuild looks great ! This site has some very talented people in it ! Can’t wait to see it finished!

Thanks for the encouraging words Chris!

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on March 09, 2020, 07:54:47 AM
So I was hoping to totally finish the back seat this weekend, but one of the cushion covers needs to be redone (I hoped to save it, but couldn't to my satisfaction).

Still, feeling good about ow it is coming out.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on March 16, 2020, 09:15:05 AM
more progress.

The second picture is the side for one of the bow seats, I started and finished both yesterday afternoon - feels great to be past the hard stuff!

Everything that is left is mostly just 4 sewed corners and then a wrap, stretch and staple.....

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on March 23, 2020, 08:58:46 AM
Two more cushions done, but now I'm out of the button casings about 100 buttons into the job, time to re-order....

I'm holding out on ordering the motor until I see where this crisis is going for us financially.

I work for Thermo Fisher Scientific, and have no reason to believe I will be laid off, but Linda just started working for Big Brothers - Big Sisters as an event manager so....



Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: carlsoncvx18 on March 23, 2020, 10:25:49 AM
Love your upholstery job.  Do you have pattern?   Did you buy a button making press?  Looking at making a interior close to what you made.  Great job.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on March 23, 2020, 10:57:43 AM
Thanks, but honestly I can tell you have more skills/experience with sewing marine vinyl than I do!

The beauty of amateur button tuck upholstery is that all of the creases and depressions hide all of the mistakes!

Having all of the piping and nice straight stripes like you have is much more difficult, though I'd imagine the right tools help immensely.

I'm doing this on a home sewing machine with just the bottom material feed - so it can be done, but I don't recommend it if you can help it!

Are you working on another interior for a different boat too?


I started out trying to use the original covers as a pattern, but discovered that:

it was a lot of extra time consuming work

I made just enough changes to make them less useful than you might think

They were not cut or assembled with any particular accuracy


I then tried making paper templates, which worked, but was still very time intensive and many adjustments still needed to be made

IMO the only way to make accurate templates (cut an sew lines) would be to also have an accurate set of wood templates to go with them otherwise it is just a hunk of vinyl cut in a shape somewhat similar to what is needed....


What I ended up doing was to use the foam or foam and wood base to create patterns on the fly, fitted them like a tailor would fit a suit, and sewed


Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on April 06, 2020, 02:13:35 PM
I'm currently working on the bow seats and am just one back cushion (pictured), two bases (that I'm struggling with because of the point in the front), and the cockpit bolsters away from wrapping up the interior  8)

With all that is going on in the world, I decided to try and pull back on the boat spending by doing a low cost, bench rebuild of the motor I have.

It started with finding a $150 mercruiser take off heads from a Donzi Sweet 16 that the owner decided  to upgrade with Vortec heads.

He is meeting me nearby tomorrow, but they look good, but I will clean, lap, check for bad guides, and put on new valve seals.

I bought a new crank and bearings and new rod bearings and rings.

Honed the cylinders, painted and cleaned the block.

Measured the main clearances and installed the crank.

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on April 24, 2020, 09:30:40 AM
So the engine rebuild is proceeding nicely, other than waiting for parts I had not considered like woodruff keys and camshaft bolts...

Can any of you CVX-CVZ guys tell me if there would be a clearance issue if I went with a 3" or 4" tall spark arrestor?

Thanks...
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on April 24, 2020, 01:46:09 PM
Good question, my z has a 2.5" tall arrestor on a qjet that doesn't hit, but I've never actually checked to see how much more room I have.   On cars I've built, we used a stock cleaner and lumped some modeling clay in the center to know the clearance.  Maybe just cut a cardboard box for testing?   
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on May 20, 2020, 02:49:02 PM
Hi Guys,

so I've been plugging away at the engine, interior and hull - getting closer!

The engine is mostly assembled, needs new fuel pump, and carb, cap, rotor, wires...

Distributor and exhaust are not installed, but that's about it!

I found the plywood on the foam boxes where the battery and tilt pump go to be soft, so I cut them out and replaced them - fixed the drainage issue too.

This also let me really inspect the factory foam and as discussed way back when - it is dry and in good shape.

Getting closer to actually bolting hard parts onto the hull!

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Jason on May 21, 2020, 08:47:59 PM
Engine looks great. Interesting accessory configuration with the alternator way off to the side and the power steering super low. Was that how it was built originally? Using a remote oil filter as well?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on May 21, 2020, 11:50:42 PM
Jason, my CVZ is the same belt configuration.   My guess is that is how the Merc 898, Chevy 305 was originally configured.  The power steering hoses almost sit in the bilge.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on May 24, 2020, 04:06:11 PM
Engine looks great. Interesting accessory configuration with the alternator way off to the side and the power steering super low. Was that how it was built originally? Using a remote oil filter as well?

Thanks Jason

As Michael said, stock position. Keep in mind the original alternator mount hangs on the log exhaust, I switched to center-rise exhaust that required a new mount, but keeps the alternator in the stock position. It will look more normal once the exhaust is mounted, but it is so heavy I am leaving it off until it is ready to go in.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on July 13, 2020, 12:53:51 PM
Hi Everyone, I hope you had a fun and safe Fourth of July!

So the helm seat mounts are done as is the engine compartment!

So I turned to doing the maintenance on the bell housing which included replacing all bellows and the gimbal bearing so I would know where I stand - if for no other reason than they have been replaced but are old, and I do not know how old

To do that I had to cut the shift cable because it is an old style that mounts to the back (facing forward) of the bell housing and there was barely a way to get a wrench on it

Next I noticed that the wiring for the trim sensors are totally shot

To replace them requires taking the hinge pins out, so I bought the tool and tried to carefully get them loose without using a impact wrench

After much spray, strength, and heat, they came out with some of the threads

So the lesson is just buy the heli-coil kit and new hinge pins upfront and use an impact and be done with it....

I still need to either rewire the existing trim sensors or replace them - not sure how to test them but will give it a try

Otherwise I have everything i need to finish what will now be a mostly rebuilt bell housing!

Aiming for in the water in August!
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: thedeuceman on July 13, 2020, 01:52:33 PM
Having been down this road with the trim sensors, replace them with quicksilver, or mercury brand. And changing out the Bellows was the right decision, both the 1900 and the bal harbor started out their new life with what appeared to be in very good condition Bellows, within two years both of them got replaced because they were torn.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on July 13, 2020, 08:39:34 PM
Thanks,

what I think I have is a "pre-Bravo 1", which parts are rarely listed for.

Do the ones for a Bravo 1 work?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on July 13, 2020, 10:10:57 PM
If I were to guess, you had a mercruiser 898, same as mine 79 Z came with.  A 305 2 barrel carb, I think rated at 198 hp.  Your outdrive had a loop hole in top of the drive?   Some call it the mr drive, others a pre alpha, but maybe it was replaced along the way and it's a alpha one gen one?   Not entirely certain, but I think the same bellows fit the various years.  In any case, I really doubt it is a bravo drive.  It would have a sea pump on the engine, no impellor and a oil tank for drive lube inside the boat.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on July 14, 2020, 07:47:55 AM
You are correct on how the boat was configured, and as far as I can tell, the outdrive is the original pre-alpha.

When I look for parts, in this case the trim sensors, I was not finding them listed for "pre-alpha", I did not know they were also referred to as "mr" - thanks!


Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on July 14, 2020, 08:32:14 AM
I found the Mercury Quicksilver p/n 805320a03 fits mc-1, mr, alpha, alpha one gen 2, and bravo drives.  Plenty of aftermarket units on the market as well, but I don't have any past experience with those.   Personally, I only use one side, starboard, that has the potentiometer to drive the gauge.  The port side is just a switch to limit how far the drive can be trimmed up while running.  On a three button switch, the two buttons together override this switch to trailer the boat.  So now I have full tilt/trim with the 2 buttons on the throttle.  Just an FYI.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on July 14, 2020, 10:43:25 AM
I ordered genuine Mercruiser, but paid 2-3x what some of the others go for.

I want both switches to work and be reliable as I am not the only driver......
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: dorelse on July 14, 2020, 03:30:59 PM
Yep, the original was either an 898 outdrive (if Chevy 305) or 888 outdrive (if Ford 302).

They're both MC-1 drives.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on July 24, 2020, 09:12:20 AM
Ok so several posts above I meant "pre-alpha"  :-[

I ordered the OEM trim sensors for $114 from Buster's Marine in NY State on eBay and got screwed >:(

Sends me a tracking number for USPS and a week later they still did not have the package.

An email, FB Message, Phone call, attempt to leave a VM,  official email complaint through eBay have all gone unanswered.

Admittedly not for long, but once I looked deeper into the complaints they do have, he scammed others the same way and went radio silent on them too.

So I filed a complaint with my bank as waiting 9 days for a response as required by eBay is a waste of time.

I'm going to order a cheap one with good ratings on Amazon Prime and move on.

I installed the "perma-Coil" brand of thread replacement, drilling the hole out, even with a drill press, was the hardest part.

I am a little disappointed in the Mallory hinge pins i bought.

The fit to the threads is a bit sloppy, seems like they will torque fine, but...

I don't have the pins I took out, but the web says the max diameter for a 5/8" bolt is 0.642".

I cannot find a minimum spec - these measure 0.616"

I believe a 0.642" bolt would fit much better

Also, I didn't measure them yet, but one of the hinge portions of the two bolts fits tighter than the other in the same hole.

Nothing drastic, but I expected better from a brand name - not sure what to do here, but am probably just going to go for it, I think it will be fine.

EDIT: Buster's Marine eBay store goes by the name of "Marine Bargains"
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Hyperacme on July 24, 2020, 11:48:38 AM
There's some Mercruiser info here ..
http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=7101.0
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on August 02, 2020, 10:57:23 AM
Big day (biggest yet to come) yesterday  8)

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on December 10, 2021, 08:34:56 AM
Hi Everyone,
So I guess it is time for the yearly update - this happened in September  8)
Still a lot to do, but 6+ years into a 1.5 year project and it finally looks like 2022 is going to be the year!
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on December 10, 2021, 09:23:56 AM
Looks great, progress may be slow, but it's still getting done. Hopefully splash in 2022
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Glastronjohn18 on December 10, 2021, 07:01:28 PM
Good to see an update. Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on December 17, 2021, 12:23:48 PM
Thanks!
I can tell you it was quite the process to get the motor out of the basement, around the house and up a hill!
Basically I bolted the motor to a wooden sledge and dragged it out the basement slider using the winch on our ATV.
I used this same method, 10' at a time to drag it to were it needed to be.
You might notice that this is still a hill and it slopes to the right, so I had to block and side-to-side level the engine hoist and the boat trailer - otherwise she slid right in!

Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on December 17, 2021, 12:32:46 PM
If an Admin could turn the pictures I'd appreciate it.

The windshields and rails have been re-installed, and the wet sanding and buffing is in progress.
Making her look pretty and more like a boat puts "wind in my sails"....

Obviously I will have to evaluate the trailer for repair or replacement once the boat is floating.
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Hyperacme on December 17, 2021, 02:39:13 PM
I turned it for you   ..   ;) 
Boat looks GREAT !
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on December 17, 2021, 02:40:48 PM
perfect!  :o
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on June 05, 2023, 08:17:53 PM
Hi everyone, time for an update  :D
So the Interior is mostly in as you can see below!
I am having trouble finding the adapter fittings I need for the trim, but will be posting my questions on that this weekend.
Otherwise I have a lot of punch list stuff to do, but no major projects left!
Scott
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Hyperacme on June 05, 2023, 09:15:58 PM
"  I am having trouble finding the adapter fittings I need for the trim  "


adapter fittings ?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Plugcheck on June 06, 2023, 10:20:14 AM
Mismatch of trim cylinders and trim power unit?
Title: Re: CVZ-18 hull rebuild has begun!
Post by: Scott in nh on June 06, 2023, 03:48:31 PM
These hoses go from the reverse lock out to the trim motor. I'll post pictures when I am where the boat is - thanks!