Minnesota Classic Glastron Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rosscoe on June 26, 2015, 10:14:22 AM
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Started a new thread so I can post updates and ask questions.
First, can these older merc style trim pumps be rebuilt? I got a spare from the PO and it would be nice to start with a fresh one.
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Nice looking boat Ross. I had thought about buying it but I dont have any more room congrats!! Can't wait to see it in person Looks beautiful.
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im sure they can, is the spare bad as well ?
what does or dosent it do ?
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I haven't tried anything yet. Need to put a battery in. It looks juicy around it. Maybe a bad line?
The spare slowly leaks down according to PO
I'm probably not going to be able to do much for a few days. Jobs/deadlines. yard work and getting the V163 water ready. We'll be taking that out Sunday on a local lake.
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The power trim motors wear out on the Mercury's. I replaced two units on the 1974 Mercury with the aftermarket API motor from Go2Marine. Arco also makes an aftermarket.
http://www.go2marine.com/product/195231F/power-trim-motor-with-reservoir-pt440abn.html (http://www.go2marine.com/product/195231F/power-trim-motor-with-reservoir-pt440abn.html)
http://www.amazon.com/TILT-MOTOR-MERCRUISER-VOLVO-PENTA-PT440/dp/B00VSBX8VI (http://www.amazon.com/TILT-MOTOR-MERCRUISER-VOLVO-PENTA-PT440/dp/B00VSBX8VI)
Used units are for sale - check Countryview Marine. But the intense labor effort in exchanging units for me means that I would buy the new unit.
http://www.countryviewmarine.com/ (http://www.countryviewmarine.com/)
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Those aren't cheap.
Thanks for the info in any case Dave.
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The power trim motors wear out on the Mercury's. I replaced two units on the 1974 Mercury with the aftermarket API motor from Go2Marine. Arco also makes an aftermarket.
http://www.go2marine.com/product/195231F/power-trim-motor-with-reservoir-pt440abn.html (http://www.go2marine.com/product/195231F/power-trim-motor-with-reservoir-pt440abn.html)
http://www.amazon.com/TILT-MOTOR-MERCRUISER-VOLVO-PENTA-PT440/dp/B00VSBX8VI (http://www.amazon.com/TILT-MOTOR-MERCRUISER-VOLVO-PENTA-PT440/dp/B00VSBX8VI)
Used units are for sale - check Countryview Marine. But the intense labor effort in exchanging units for me means that I would buy the new unit.
http://www.countryviewmarine.com/ (http://www.countryviewmarine.com/)
David, do think the after market ones are better?
You said you replaced 2. One was OEM and the other was?
I wonder what the weak link is on these. I charged the battery and get the pump to make some noise in one direction and non in the other. I am going to check the reservoir next to see of there is oil in there. According to my manual, sounds like you just use car motor oil.
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If the pump only runs in 1 direction y prob got a bad relay or switch.
Which way does the motor run ?
Is the prob that it won't go down ?
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Actually, it doesn't move at all. Only hums in one direction.
I want to get i down so I can put the muffs on it and take the cowl off. Should be a way to let the pressure off, hopefully without a gush of oil.
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There should be a knob you can turn (screws in I think) so you can move it by hand
At least that's what my Larson has
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Nice boat Ross! Good to see it went to a good home, I know that was important to the previous owner.
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Cool lookin boat Ross. Same hull as the C500 just a lil longer.
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Do not use engine oil. Call Don Larkey to find out what can be used. Of course there is Mercury and Johnson/Evinrude power trim oil but it is expense. Don Larkey should know that to use. I hate to say something from memory and be wrong.
I believe the original Mercury power trim unit is the best, but buying one used is taking a chance. The aftermarket one (API) gave out and I replaced it with another new API and sold the V-153. The short life of the first API unit may have been my fault - running low on oil.
There are a number of items to check on power trim units - electrical solynode, valve body assembly, clogged passageways for the oil, and lastly the hydraulic pump.
If I were you, I would first check the oil level. The oil level tops out to overflowing, then check the sound of the hydraulic pump. If the pump is making funny sounds, in all likelihood it needs replacing. Guess I would choose a new API for $137 rather than a used Mercury unit. Then clean up the valve body assembly and put in new check valve ball bearings (Supreme Marine). Put in the right oil and bleed the lines. A lot of pain staking work.
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Do not use engine oil. Call Don Larkey to find out what can be used. Of course there is Mercury and Johnson/Evinrude power trim oil but it is expense. Don Larkey should know that to use. I hate to say something from memory and be wrong.
I believe the original Mercury power trim unit is the best, but buying one used is taking a chance. The aftermarket one (API) gave out and I replaced it with another new API and sold the V-153. The short life of the first API unit may have been my fault - running low on oil.
There are a number of items to check on power trim units - electrical solynode, valve body assembly, clogged passageways for the oil, and lastly the hydraulic pump.
If I were you, I would first check the oil level. The oil level tops out to overflowing, then check the sound of the hydraulic pump. If the pump is making funny sounds, in all likelihood it needs replacing. Guess I would choose a new API for $137 rather than a used Mercury unit. Then clean up the valve body assembly and put in new check valve ball bearings (Supreme Marine). Put in the right oil and bleed the lines. A lot of pain staking work.
So even after spending the $137. Id be using some old parts?
I am hoping I can spend some time on it today. Check oil level and all connections both electrical and hydraulic. Its not in a super easy spot to work on but what is?
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The hydraulic pump comes with the reservoir tank as one unit. The switch is also included. You reuse the valve body as they do not manufacture those anymore. Hopefully the oil line ends are not stripped and do not leak oil. Good luck. My unit was under the splashwell and made things very difficult.
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Why not motor oil? That trim pump calls for straight 30 Wt. (detergent free) oil, its what I'm using in mine and is working just fine?
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I stand corrected, engine oil is an alternative.
There is a lot of discussion about what oil to use for power trim units - automatic transmission fluid, power steering fluid, engine oil, or dedicated power trim oil sold by the manufacturer.
Guess one important point is not to mix one with the other if you are not sure of what is in the power trim unit.
http://forums.iboats.com/forum/general-boating-outdoors-activities/boat-topics-and-questions-not-engine-topics/391441-power-trim-fluid-question-motor-oil-or-hydraulic-fluid (http://forums.iboats.com/forum/general-boating-outdoors-activities/boat-topics-and-questions-not-engine-topics/391441-power-trim-fluid-question-motor-oil-or-hydraulic-fluid)
http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engine-repair-and-maintenance/mercury-mariner-outboards/137243-mercury-power-trim-help (http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engine-repair-and-maintenance/mercury-mariner-outboards/137243-mercury-power-trim-help)
http://forums.iboats.com/filedata/fetch?id=6976750 (http://forums.iboats.com/filedata/fetch?id=6976750)
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From Mercury repair manual ...
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If you are going to use your boat in cold weather, I would use the multi-weight oil as it would flow easier and not put a strain on the pump.
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Finally had some time today to mess with the trim system. I managed to get the motor down but not back up. I checked much of the wiring up to the switch and also made sure there was oil in the reservoir. I decided to try and bleed the system but my manual has a screwy way of having you do it. Removing the lines and the trim cylinders completely seems odd at best. Then you have to hook the lines back up to the trim cylinders to bleed them, then remove again to install the trim cylinders after bleeding? That would just let air in!
I tried it without removing the lines and again, the pics in the manual of the up and down bleed screws do not match my motor so I did some guessing. Removed one and oil blasted out. Put it back. Removed one (of two choices) near the top of the cylinder and ran the pump until I felt like there were no more air bubbles. Tired that on the other side and the pump would not even bring oil out consistently. My conclusion is a bad pump. What is also strange is that before I attempted to bleed the system, I installed the "old" pump that came with the boat and it acted the same way (making noise in one direction) which is what led me to believe it was an electrical issue. There may be more than one thing going on at the same time.
I did discover that the switch (trim limit?) mounted on the motor mount was gummed up and not moving so I fixed that.
Where was that bleeding procedure from that you posted the other day Gregg?
David, so does the valve body ever go bad or just the motor?
My motor is running but there are changes in speed and pitch and sometimes it sounds like there is an impeller in there that is grinding. So replacing the motor alone will not fix all, if I understand you correctly.
The lines look poor too but seem to be functional. Just ugly.
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From the Mercury repair manual ...
If you don't have it let me know, and I'll get ya a copy.
The procedure on your 1989 Mercury is easy ...
Top reservoir off with motor all the way up, then run it up and down.
Done !
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Sounds like you've got a trim limit switch/function on that engine. In which case you'd have to press the trailer button on the control handle to raise the engine. Or you can bypass the switch which is probably bad, just connect the two wires together and you'll have full up control without the limit function.
Whenever I've bled a trim system all I had to do was fill the reservoir and cycle the trim full up and full down a few times, then refill again and repeat until it can't take any more fluid.
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How does the air escape, Rich?
I am having switch issues too. I used my meter and checked the wires that were at the switches and at the trim unit itself and it checked out ok. The switch wasn't working at all in the "up" position nor would the trailering switch do anything, besides making the pump hum. The manual suggested hooking up a jumper/starter switch across 12v and a point on the solenoid and it worked that way. Later it worked (hummed, did not move motor) at the control. That is erratic. What inst is raising and lowering the motor. It went down once today and would not go back up.
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From the Mercury repair manual ...
If you don't have it let me know, and I'll get ya a copy.
The procedure on your 1989 Mercury is easy ...
Top reservoir off with motor all the way up, then run it up and down.
Done !
OK that's the one I have on disc. I have a hard copy one as well and it never mentioned any vent as stated in what you posted.
This is an 83 or 84. I have not positively identified it yet. The color schemes I found online were nothing like mine and the serial number took me no where.
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I know nothing about the older T & T system ... Just what I've read in manual, and I believe it talks about more then one version of pump / motor / reservoir ....
Can you post your motors serial number ?
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7158829
At least on my 89, there letters that prefixed it. There are none on this one.
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I know nothing about the older T & T system ... Just what I've read in manual, and I believe it talks about more then one version of pump / motor / reservoir ....
Can you post your motors serial number ?
I am learning as I go. I have a spare set up and it has two solenoids on it and the one in the boat has one. I have seen both in my manual.
The lines appear to be about 50.00 a piece, 4x
I may just cover them up as long as they are not leaking.
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From Canada ?
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Hmmm
I thought the boat came from Crystal Marine originally.
Guess I am going to need to know for sure before I can buy any parts for it.
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The valve body assembly is an aluminum plate with a bunch of passageways and ball bearing check valves. I would say they rarely go bad, just need to be cleaned with solvent and new bearings put in them. You can buy used ones, probably at Countryview Marine.
It may be that to bleed the system, like Rich said, simply trim the motor up and down all the way several times. There are bleeder screws at the top and bottom of the cylinders. Take the screws out and trim until no more air bubbles come out. Be sure to keep filling the reserve to compensate for the lost oil.
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The valve body assembly is an aluminum plate with a bunch of passageways and ball bearing check valves. I would say they rarely go bad, just need to be cleaned with solvent and new bearings put in them. You can buy used ones, probably at Countryview Marine.
It may be that to bleed the system, like Rich said, simply trim the motor up and down all the way several times. There are bleeder screws at the top and bottom of the cylinders. Take the screws out and trim until no more air bubbles come out. Be sure to keep filling the reserve to compensate for the lost oil.
I'd like to just be able to trim it up and down but it is not cooperating. :)
I may end up going and seeing Don at Hanny's. I don't mind spending a day or two on something like this as long as I see some positive results.
I want 3 running boats THIS year!
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Ross, Jerry Sellner is good at troubleshooting Mercury stuff. He answered a question I had on a power trim unit. Steve Akermann may also be able to help.
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if you want to drag it down i could give you a hand troubleshooting it, bring the extra pump, i have some parts for them as well.
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Ross,
Your signature gets longer and longer every day.... ;)
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" 88 CVX-23 350 Mag "
Is that the one that needed a transom ?
Your gonna need another pole barn Ross !
LOL ...
1988 Glastron/Carlson 23 CVX - $2900 (Arkdale)
http://wausau.craigslist.org/boa/5094966919.html (http://wausau.craigslist.org/boa/5094966919.html)
(http://images.craigslist.org/00V0V_dpKfcHSWred_600x450.jpg)
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the folks at TI are fully prepared to add another dock ;)
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Ross,
Your signature gets longer and longer every day.... ;)
It really isn't fair is it J ...? Hoarder!
Ehh well, least it's good chit ...
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Busted
Hoarder, yeah no kidding. I have started moving boats back out of the barn to make room for ones in better condition :)
3 this year. I think I am at my limit but it doesn't help having and enabling wife, or should I say, it DOES help?
He must have forgotten to pull some of the ads.
It was our 4th of July road trip.
I like the black flake.
Also another deal I could not refuse. Otherwise I wouldn't have rented a tow vehicle, but honestly, it looks better in the pictures than in person. Far from perfect.
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if you want to drag it down i could give you a hand troubleshooting it, bring the extra pump, i have some parts for them as well.
I'd love to have your assistance. When do you have time between boating and working?
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Yea that...
Any night but Friday or I should be around all weekend working on the 1900
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At this point, I don't know how the rest of my week is going to go, meaning I don't know what time I will get done with my jobs.
What time are you generally home by?
I'll PM you.
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So, what does this boat need Ross? (And...what are you bringing to TI?)
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So, what does this boat need Ross? (And...what are you bringing to TI?)
Which one? lol
If your're talking about the 23, maybe I should start another thread, although I wont be doing much with it for awhile.
If you're asking about the 17, I need to get the trim working, then I want to run it. Wiring needs some clean up, wet sand at some point as well as a partial interior redo. Also the swivel for the passenger seat is toast. I've ordered a new one but after taking the seat a part, found rotten wood.
I haven't even registered yet, but as of today, the only thing I have usable is the V163. We took it out on Sunday. First time on the water, other then the fishing boat. New tach is working but now the trim gauge is not?
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Yeah, I was talking about the 23! lol!
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Thanks to Joe, we got the trim working last night.
Apparently, there was a leak somewhere at some point, so my disassembling and reassembling everything, which I thought was for nothing, must have fixed that. Just needed oil and bleeding.
Today I'm going to run it in my tank for the first time.
I am still working on the passenger seat which went from bad bearings in the swivel to bad wood too. Need to get a chunk of plywood the correct thickness and reassemble it and there is some wiring to clean up.
Thanks again Joe for taking time out of your busy schedule.
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Trim still letting motor down over time. Must still be a leak.
Tried firing the motor Thursday. Wont start. Spent a fair amount of time checking things like the stator, trigger, plugs etc. Getting spark at the plugs but I am not sure if its weak?
Starting to think it might be a fuel issues. I pulled the filter out of the fuel pump and it looked ok. Blew it out with compressed air. Gas is getting pumped up to the pump. Beyond that I am not sure but the carbs are dripping gas so I assume so.
I think I'll try a remote tank with fresh gas. I really dont know how old the stuff in the tank is. Maybe some carb cleaner as well.
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Try some starting fluid to see if it pops over.
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Try some starting fluid to see if it pops over.
Yup.
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Maybe just a little would do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lykM4XIULdo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lykM4XIULdo)
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Finally got the CVX 17 out on the water last night for the first time.
The good: Started and ran well
This hull handles great, especially compared to the 48 year old boat I am used to.
Trims out easily, feels sporty
Loaded onto the all roller trailer pretty well. Might have been luck.
The bad: Can not wear a hat in this one, at speed.
Could not even achieve 5k rpms running a 20P Lazer II. Ran about 4700
Best speed with 2 on board 47 MPH. Disappointing.
Lots of torque steer. Seemed to improve with more trimming.
May have to consider re-powering or a rebuild at some point.
Had on incident when the whole boat jerked rather violently in a turn. May have been trimmed out too much? Made Joni want to put on her life jacket and say she "used to enjoy boating with me" LOL
All trailer lights NOT working as usual.
I would like to find a stock boarding ladder. The one that is on here is barely usable. Held up with a bungee cord. Forced to jump in to drop it.
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The vid in the link looks horrible. Not at all like what it looks like on my phone. These files are HUGE
I wonder if Dropbox compresses it when sharing a link. I dont know.
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" Could not even achieve 5k rpms running a 20P Lazer II. Ran about 4700"
I would think a 20P LII would be a good prop for your set up.
My CV (little lighter boat and just me in the boat) with a 115 prop rated HP and a 20P LII did about 49 to 50 MPH / GPS ..
Speed wise your in the Ball park ... RPM's are very low though ...
How old are the plugs ? Gapped OK ?
Old fuel, or a mixture of some old and some new ?
Check all the easy stuff first ...
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Gap less plugs. Not sure how old but they didn't look bad.
Mixture of new and old gas.
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Sea Foam & Deep Creep the motor and fuel.
If you clean off all fuel lines and stuff, so every thing is dry, then run motor and see if you have any leaks around hose fittings ... Old / Bad fuel line will drip fuel and lines will be wet.
I've had an old style Mercury bayonet fuel connecter go bad also ...
Did Djyox say how fast it ran ?
Were your numbers from GPS ?
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Sea Foam & Deep Creep the motor and fuel.
If you clean off all fuel lines and stuff, so every thing is dry, then run motor and see if you have any leaks around hose fittings ... Old / Bad fuel line will drip fuel and lines will be wet.
I've had an old style Mercury bayonet fuel connecter go bad also ...
Did Djyox say how fast it ran ?
Were your numbers from GPS ?
Yeah I have spent some time cleaning up the inside and it looks dry for the most part. Of course the carbs leak when you tilt it up.
No I never asked him.
Speed is from GPS
I'm going to take a look at the cable adjustments and make sure its traveling to the max.
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"I've had an old style Mercury bayonet fuel connecter go bad also ..."
What were the symptoms of this? Sucking air?
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Yep ...
When I get a new / old motor I go thru the fuel system and replace as much as possible ...
2 stroke hate to lean out ...
Mix up a sea foam /gas cocktail, run motor until float bowl are full ... let sit while you Deep creep cyl.
Flood cyl. & exhaust with deep creep, let sit, turn flywheel a bit squirt more deep creep in . repeat three or four times.
Fire up motor and enjoy large white clouds of smoke, while watching oily goo drip out prop ...
Might not cure your problems but can't hurt.
Very cheap compared to carb rebuild and Link & Sync ...
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Where do you get Deep Creep?
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Deep Creep is just Sea Foam in a spray can.
Manards or any auto parts store.