Minnesota Classic Glastron Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Scott in nh on August 06, 2015, 01:19:15 PM
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My CVZ was previously repaired improperly, so I do not have anything to use as patterns.
I have seen how to make a pattern, but was hoping somebody would save me the effort!
Thanks,
Scott
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Scott, I am also currently working on a CVZ-18. I have a pattern for the front, but it does not have the taper down for the front seats to rest on. I would be happy to make you a copy of that and then measurements for the rear of the stringer since mine are good shape from the dash back.
brandon
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I recently restored a CVZ-18, and Brandon(75starflight) is currently in the process of doing the same. I had given Brandon a template or two, but in the end I had to do some custom fitting to suit how I wanted it to be done. For instance, I made a double layer transom that goes all the way across, though many only use the single center mounted transom. Stringers were the worst part to get right since there is a curve on the bottom from the hull, and a drop to a point in the front. It was a long process of cutting, sanding, and fitting. Floor was somewhat easier. My old stringers were so rotten, it was hard to make any templates from. My advice would be if your removing all the transom, stringers, and floor would be to make a nice cradle that restores the hull shape, then custom fit the stringers to hold it in place. Plenty of folks on here have been through this process, feel free to ask questions, and by all means, post progress photos.
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Thanks guys!
Brandon I would love a copy thanks, let me know what you need to get it to me.
Michael, thanks for the advice, I am hoping to block it up on the trailer as a cradle.
I haven't used a straight edge yet, but there appears to be a hook where the front half of the stringer under the floor no longer connects with what is left of the stringer under the engine.
I figure I am going to need a good amount of weight on the stringers during install to get it all reasonably straight.
No worries about fitting, in a different life long ago I installed/finished hardwood floors for 8 years.
Scott
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My Z had some significant hook, about 3/8 to 1/2", caused by an ill fitting trailer bunks not supporting the transom properly. Combined with rot and weight it distorted the hull profile. When all the stringers, floor, and transom are removed, it is amazing how flexible the remaining glass is. Combined with having to support you, and possibly a helpers weight inside, it is in my opinion, very important to support the hull to obtain the final shape you desire. If you plan to blue print the hull, this step saves a lot of time and filler getting the lines back to straight. Since you are an accomplished woodworker, a cradle should be a fairly easy task for you to construct. Not saying a trailer will not work, it could very well, but my cradle for instance has four caster wheels allowing the craft to be maneuvered around the shop as I need, very handy. Good luck to you in your resto, it is a lot of work, but when completed, the sense of pride and accomplishment is well worth it. Take your time, be safe with the tools and chemicals, and enjoy the time.
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Thanks Michael,
No shop, little flat ground room, gravel/sand driveway.
That is why I am looking to support it on the trailer, but your points are well taken.
I am not going to blueprint the hull, this is really just a family boat that I want to get back in the water, see how she runs and go from there.
A fresh interior will have to wait until next year, but I do hope to get it wet before the season is over (or at least before the lake freezes lol).
Scott
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Michael,
I have found and read Brandon's restoration thread, but have not been able to find yours - can you give me a link?
I've been looking at CVX/CVZ threads since last fall so I have a pretty good idea of how things are typically handled, but the more the better!
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Thanks Michael,
No shop, little flat ground room, gravel/sand driveway.
That is why I am looking to support it on the trailer, but your points are well taken.
Scott, I am in the same "boat" (sorry for the pun) as you are. My work area is outdoor also including dirt floor, but i did build a cradle and level it before I transferred from the trailer to the cradle. I had to though since my trailer was not in the best shape to support the hull at the time.
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Thanks Michael,
No shop, little flat ground room, gravel/sand driveway.
That is why I am looking to support it on the trailer, but your points are well taken.
Scott, I am in the same "boat" (sorry for the pun) as you are. My work area is outdoor also including dirt floor, but i did build a cradle and level it before I transferred from the trailer to the cradle. I had to though since my trailer was not in the best shape to support the hull at the time.
Haha - My trailer needs a lot of work too, but will supply a side-to-side level basis for supporting the boat by the strakes and I want to keep it mobile!
I am going to put a pallet on my motorcycle trailer to put the motor on for the same reason!
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Sorry to double post a question - meant to post it here:
Can you link me to your cradle build details and or do you have drawings or dims?
Thanks,
Scott
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Sorry to double post a question - meant to post it here:
Can you link me to your cradle build details and or do you have drawings or dims?
Thanks,
Scott
Sorry Scott, I don't have any specs on my cradle. To describe it, it is a 2x6 frame wider than the hull and the same length as the hull, with supports running every 3 feet on center. I have four vertical supports holding the hull each are located at the lifting strakes. The two center ones are supporting the weight of the hull it self and they are 2x6s standing on end while my outter ones are 1x10s or 12s just to keep the hull from flexing and getting out of shape.
I need to build a bow support eventually so it doesn't flex as much. I will post some pictures this afternoon.
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Here is a couple pics of the one I built for my 23 Made a big frame out of 4x4 and then took a 2x10 and laid it on end running along the inner strake then added an additional 2x4 on the outside strake/ edge
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Ok thanks Brandon,
I searched around but didn't see anything similar to what I was thinking - your description seems close!
I have a smaller trailer that I can easily remove the beds from leaving me with a flat platform.
From there I think I simply want to build a box on the trailer out of 2 x 6 on edge that will support and true up to two lower strakes.
I haven't decided if I also need to support the two outer strakes the full length of the "flat" section or just add enough support to steady the boat.
I am thinking I will replace the transom wood first and before cutting any holes take it down to the private ramp for our road (200 yds away) and just float it off of one trailer and onto the other.
Am I crazy or on the right track?
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Wow, that is quite a rig and project you have going on Fireman!
I'm thinking along your lines, but less complex as I am not removing the top deck.
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The boards screwed to the stringes were so I could flip it over and the acted like saw horses. Then I blueprinted the bottom of the hull.
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Scott, I am also currently working on a CVZ-18. I have a pattern for the front, but it does not have the taper down for the front seats to rest on. I would be happy to make you a copy of that and then measurements for the rear of the stringer since mine are good shape from the dash back.
brandon
Brandon can you explain what you mean by "taper down for the front seats"?
Also, how is the floor laid out?
Sorry but I have zero wood to work with so I know there was a bulkhead by the walk through and a center stringer from there forward, but that is about it.
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I built the cradle for my CVX 18 similar to Brandon's. Frame and cross members are 2x6's, uprights and rails are 2x4's. Here Ethan is attaching felts to soften the ride.
(http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a494/glastronjohn18/CVX18/Glastronjohn18%20CVX%2018%20Rebuild/IMG_1634_zps0033712a.jpg) (http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/glastronjohn18/media/CVX18/Glastronjohn18%20CVX%2018%20Rebuild/IMG_1634_zps0033712a.jpg.html)
I brought the rails up as far forward as I could even bending them to follow the contour of the hull.
(http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a494/glastronjohn18/CVX18/Glastronjohn18%20CVX%2018%20Rebuild/IMG_1662_zpsb658c720.jpg) (http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/glastronjohn18/media/CVX18/Glastronjohn18%20CVX%2018%20Rebuild/IMG_1662_zpsb658c720.jpg.html)
Here's a side view. Handy storage below for my new stringers until they're ready for installation.
(http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a494/glastronjohn18/CVX18/Glastronjohn18%20CVX%2018%20Rebuild/IMG_2338_zps8455389a.jpg) (http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/glastronjohn18/media/CVX18/Glastronjohn18%20CVX%2018%20Rebuild/IMG_2338_zps8455389a.jpg.html)
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I have a ton of pictures from my CVZ rebuild..I'll put a link tonight.
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thanks for the tips guys, trying to keep this one the "I need help - show me what you did" and the other is my work in progress.
Does that make sense?
I think I am going to use the lumber right under the strakes to get the hull as straight as I can without flipping her over to blueprint.
Starting on the trailer gives me something like a auto chassis jig to have a flat surface to work from so the hull doesn't have a hook or a twist.
What do you think?
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Some people have added extra supports to their trailer instead of building a dedicated cradle. You might try that route as it's just another way to support the boat as you work and it and it is movable.
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Here's my entire album...I always said I'd organize is someday (someday hasn't arrived) but its somewhat in order.
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Here's my entire album...I always said I'd organize is someday (someday hasn't arrived) but its somewhat in order.
Hi Doran - no links??
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Yeah, check the other thread...
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Yeah, check the other thread...
nevermind...I posted something, somewhere last night...I'll find it.
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https://picasaweb.google.com/114541090970091193930/CVZ18Pictures?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNDGsaze7oqfFg&feat=directlink (https://picasaweb.google.com/114541090970091193930/CVZ18Pictures?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNDGsaze7oqfFg&feat=directlink)
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Some people have added extra supports to their trailer instead of building a dedicated cradle. You might try that route as it's just another way to support the boat as you work and it and it is movable.
That is my current plan
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So I know this question is as controversial as asking what motor oil to use, but what plywood should I use for the transom and floor and what lumber should I use for the stringers?
Not looking to spend a fortune, but I'm not cheap either.
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So I know this question is as controversial as asking what motor oil to use, but what plywood should I use for the transom and floor and what lumber should I use for the stringers?
Not looking to spend a fortune, but I'm not cheap either.
Here we go again.
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http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=2434.msg26844#msg26844 (http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=2434.msg26844#msg26844)
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http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=2434.msg26844#msg26844 (http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=2434.msg26844#msg26844)
Yeah I use the search engine and read the threads (including this one) and it reminds me of the motor oil threads on car and motorcycle forums I visit.
Grinders response confirms my fear lol.
I was hoping I had missed something and some sort of a consensus had been reached.
I can tell you:
I am not interested in using a composite on this particular boat
I'd prefer not to use marine grade but will if I cannot find comfort in another choice
I'm not interested in experimenting with something that "should work great" but doesn't have a track record
I don't like using crappy looking wood even if you aren't going to see it - if it doesn't come reasonably flat and looks horrible on the outside - what does it look like inside?
I want to be sure that vinyl ester will stick to it permanently
1/2" for the floor?
Same for the transom or should that be built up from 3/4"?
What about the stringers?
Scott
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Or let me rephrase the plywood question:
1) how do I identify that the plywood in question has the proper exterior grade that will not delaminate (besides trusting the signage or store employees i.e. what markings or ratings am I looking for)?
2) Is there a particular grade that meets the above (uses waterproof resin), bonds well to vinyl ester resin, has minimal voids, doesn't cost a ridiculous amount and is easy to find?
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Or let me rephrase the plywood question:
1) how do I identify that the plywood in question has the proper exterior grade that will not delaminate (besides trusting the signage or store employees i.e. what markings or ratings am I looking for)?
2) Is there a particular grade that meets the above (uses waterproof resin), bonds well to vinyl ester resin, has minimal voids, doesn't cost a ridiculous amount and is easy to find?
Use ACX grade ply for your project , its way better than the crap they put in them at the factory . You can find it at any lumber yard , just dont use pressure treated ply which could possibly lead to bonding issues . Vinyl ester will bond tenaciously to it so will polyester and epoxy .
Use Doug fir for the stringers , you can get it in most any length you will need for stringers . Its most commonly used for roof rafters because of its strength.
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So decent progress is being made (see my progress thread) and it is not impossible that I will be cutting wood on Labor Day weekend.
That is of course unless I need to make my own templates for pretty much everything - I have very little to no original wood to use as a guide.
If anybody has dimensional drawings it would save me a ton of time!
Doesn't have to be anything fancy, a hand drawing with dims is all I need.
Thanks
Scott
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Also, where did the factory place the plywood floor seams? Does it matter?
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My next questions are about fiberglass.
I am going to buy my products here http://www.mertons.com/ (http://www.mertons.com/) as it is nearby and was recommended by some guys on the national site.
Resin:
vinyl ester
tabbing in the stringers:
24 oz stitchmat - sufficient - yes?
Motor mounts:
24 oz stitchmat - is that alone enough or should I add another layer of roving?
Transom:
a layer of fiberglass cloth between the plywood and the transom, another layer over the plywood - 4, 6 or 12 oz? Is one layer enough?
Floor:
a layer of fiberglass cloth - 4, 6 or 12 oz?
Approximately how much of each of the above will I need?
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I / we sandwiched biax between the two 3/4 plywood boards for transom, clamped for an hour, mixed resin with cabasol and put that between transom wood and fiberglass on hull, also put it around bottom of transom wood and hull, to fill in gaps.
Sorry, I told Tomas ( Express Composites ) what I was doing and he started grabbing stuff ... he got me very close to how much I needed to complete the job ... Some one will know and post ...
I used Poly resin, so not sure if this is right for vinyl ester but you could ask Mertons ...
I mixed poly resin with styrene (half and half to thin it out) and coated every exposed piece of wood with it, every hole through the hull (motor mount holes, splash well drain, hull drain, trailer tie down hooks, anodes mount hole, seat bases, etc.) water should never get to wood now !
On a boat floor I did years ago, I ran a bead of 3m 5200 around the edge of floor and hull and then glassed over it, right or wrong thing to do, I'm not sure ... BUT ... Have you ever tried to remove 5200 ?
That stuff is near imposable to get off ! Even on gel coat ...
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Thanks for the response Gregg,
I plan on talking to Mertons, but I don't blindly follow any advice - prefer to hear the options and logic and make up my own mind, so I am asking here as well.
Yes I will thin and seal all wood and openings that expose wood using the correct thinner for the vinyl ester.
I will make a "peanut butter" and bed all joints between the wood and hull.
I think I will use the peanut butter to bed the floors rather than 5200, but I'm sure that works well too.
I'm looking for more opinions on the transom build up, but again I'm sure what you did works well.
I'm not looking to make this thing into a tank - any reasonable job will be stronger and last longer than what the factory did!
Scott
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" but I don't blindly follow any advice "
I had a general knowledge of what to use but was unsure of the amounts.
At least 15 members of this site got there supply's and advice from Express last year, Tomas was a great resource and will be missed.
He knew far more from years of experience with fiberglass and resins then I did.
But ...
I understand what your saying about getting all the facts and figures, before jumping into it.
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" but I don't blindly follow any advice "
I had a general knowledge of what to use but was unsure of the amounts.
At least 15 members of this site got there supply's and advice from Express last year, Tomas was a great resource and will be missed.
He knew far more from years of experience with fiberglass and resins then I did.
But ...
I understand what your saying about getting all the facts and figures, before jumping into it.
Thanks, I bought this boat last fall and other projects prevented me from started to work on it until a few weeks ago.
In the meantime I had done a fair amount of reading and there are just so many ways this cat has been skinned!
Anyway I am making measurements tonight and am going to order supplies tomorrow.
I would like to get at least enough woodwork and fiberglass work done before it is too cold to glass to be able to put the motor back in (transom, stringers, rear floor section and engine mounts).
Otherwise I will be at a complete standstill until the weather breaks next April or May.
Of course I can only work on it during the weekends and I have some free and some very busy weekends in the next two months. So depending on the weather, determination and luck - we will see what happens!
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So now that a good way to make patterns for the stringers has been offered, I'd like to know how the factory laid out the plywood floors.
The fuel tank area between the stringers has what appears to be the same gray gelcoat as the engine bay, so I would guess that they ran the plywood the long way in 3 pieces with a separate piece covering the fuel tank - correct?
The bow piece appears to end where the forward bulkhead goes.
How was the flooring under the rear seat and under the floatation boxes/engine bay done?
I have seen some photos of plywood being laid side to side, but am not sure I like where the unsupported seams would end up - suggestions?
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It was black in the engine compartment and bare fiberglass on the hull bottom. Here's how the factory laid it out:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Bcw3lKtD-vI/SqQvtRHNx1I/AAAAAAAAcsc/5cfxGc0w24s/s800-Ic42/P9060075.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xcqaBwD37Gk/SqQvwr5u-fI/AAAAAAAAcsY/KV3vTugL3ak/s800-Ic42/P9060076.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CRP7XzSQ6t8/SqQvy53cC9I/AAAAAAAActA/rlWRGLqDabk/s800-Ic42/P9060077.JPG)
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Thanks Doran,
I am going to lay it out the same as the factory did.
It will be easier for me to handle the sheets alone that way too.
Now another subject with diverse opinions:
Foam under the floor or no foam?
Drain holes or no drain holes?
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I personally liked having the foam under the floor. Its more solid and its quieter...but yes, opinions will vary on this one. Go with what you're comfortable with.
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I have two plywood seams, one 4' from the engine bilge wall, the other four feet forward of that between the front seats. I used 3/4" tongue and groove so no support required underneath. I used Marine flotation foam under the sides, and made and glued new rubber supports under my tank. Good time to work on the belly tank and insure it will last. A drain channel now exists bow to stern in the center. I hand fitted all the wood peices before doing any glass work. Everyone has their own way. One thing I remember well, fiberglas material is not as flexible as one might expect, I chased air bubbles for a long time it seemed. My advice, do glass work in small batches, maybe a pint at most, the results are worth it.
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So what is the best way to cut the outdrive hole in the transom?
I noticed the two top round corners look like they were drilled with a hole cutter at about a 45 deg. angle?
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The top of the "Bowling pin cutout" will need to be ground, filed, or cut to allow the full travel of the steering arm. If the cuts are made with a saw entirely perpendicular then the steering travel side to side will be limited slightly. I used some of my porting tools(die grinder) to grind and blend the wood at the top for steering travel. I actually cut out my opening by marking it and then cutting with a saber saw on a bench. Doing so allowed me to glass and protect the now freshly cut wood surface when I finally glassed the new transom in place. A rotozip, router, or sawzall could also be effective at cutting it out I would imagine.
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I use a jig saw to cut mine. I went through 4 blades when I cut Phoenix's transom key hole.
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I use a jig saw to cut mine. I went through 4 blades when I cut Phoenix's transom key hole.
I have a jig saw, but was worried about blade deflection.
Also, I cut the new transom plywood with it and used a long, "fine" wood blade, but it was still aggressive and chipped some of the edges - would fine metal blades work better?
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I actually researched what blade would work the best when I did my first transom and purchased one with rather large teeth. I ended up with a nice clean cut but I also did not force the cut and let the saw go at its own pace.
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Now that the transom is in and glass, my attention is back on the stringers.
I am struggling to come up with a decent template.
The open area is no problem, but I can't seem to get a good scribe or measurements under the dash.
I know it doesn't have to fit like I'm building a cabinet, but....
Where did the front of the factory stringer end?
Before, at or after where the front of the bow seat stand meets the floor?
Scott
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the front of the stringer goes all the way to where the floor meets the hull.
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Lots of pictures in my album... should be plenty of that area I think?
Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk
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Thanks, I finally have a port side stringer that fits well.
The hull layup on the Starboard side is different enough to cause the port stringer to be about 1/4" to high when placed there.
Not a big deal to trim to fit now that I have a shape to use.
Makes me wonder how much gap they left so that one size fits all at the factory....