Minnesota Classic Glastron Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: G-Force on October 28, 2017, 11:56:45 PM
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Hello Everyone,
I just picked up this boat yesterday. Although I've built and remodeled a few houses, I've never rebuilt a boat before, and I'm not really a mechanic. It's going to be an adventure.
I'm 80% sure I want to convert to outboard power. I'm sure a lot of you are saying "nay" already, but that's part of the reason I bought a project boat. I want to build 96" x 72" "L" shaped bench seating for 7, reclaiming the engine area in the process. Among other things, it might require beefing up the transom, and it will require some sort of conversion bracket. Aluminum brackets are available for $900, but I might be able to build out of wood and fiberglass. I'm thinking of an older Optimax 200, but still not settled on a motor. I've seen some Opti's for around $3000, but I'm hoping to find something closer to $2000. Not sure if that's realistic.
The floor is very springy in the center, so that will get pulled for sure, and then I'll see what the stringers look like. I do see some signs of rot on a stinger near the old engine area.
I've got a pile of parts for connecting a Chevy 350. Motor mounts, and a bunch of doo-hickeys. No outdrive. I imagine they might be worth some $, but i'd rather trade for insight, knowledge, and maybe a little labor. I can send pics to anyone who's interested.
Much more could be said, but I'll stop for now. I'm hoping it's a 1 winter project, but it could easily be 2.
Thanks,
Grant
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Sound like a challenge... If I can change a outboard into a jet. I see no reason you can't change an i/o into a outboard. You might want more than the 200.. That's a big boat. Good luck!
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Sound like a challenge... If I can change a outboard into a jet. I see no reason you can't change an i/o into a outboard. You might want more than the 200.. That's a big boat. Good luck!
You might be right. But I figure I'm losing around 500 pounds of engine weight, so losing a few HP might from the original 250 might gain me some MPG.
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Sounds like an exciting project. I just picked up a Glastron HPV-175 as a project boat. Where is your project shop located?
A couple of things to consider; I have a 100 gallon fuel tank in my other boat, empty to full is a 700 pound difference. I only see a 4 mph difference in WOT speed. So, I'm not sure you'll get the trade off you are hoping for by eliminating I/O weight vs less HP. Two buddies, well equipped, are 500# combined!
I switched prop pitch to get me out of the hole easier with my 26' and sacrificed 7 mph on the top end. Overall, it was worth it.
Others here know for sure, but I'd guess you have 2 - ¾" sheets of plywood sandwiched between outer and inner fiberglass. That seems to be a strong enough transom for an I/O or an outboard for a trailered-size boat.
I'd be interested in the gimbal halves in trade for some labor.
Allan
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Certainly could be done, converting I/O to OB, but will take some careful planning and design. Good thing is the whole wooden structure requires replacement, so it's not like your cutting up a nice boat. Grafting in an outboard transom glass from a similar sized boat might save some time building the splashwell. Easiest may be to restore original transom and add a jackplate. May also require some additional bracing inside, but that could easily be incorporated into storage areas above the bilge. Good luck in your endeavors, hope to see some pics.
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YEP ... It can be done ...
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No great pictures of transom in thread Doran posted ...
Maybe some searching could find more.
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Transom brackets ideas ...
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Looks like the 23 with twins has some structure that ties all the way out to the sides. Using a bracket, jack plate, or other custom mount could allow the tanning platform to remain. Looks like the 23 with splashwell has a narrowed sun pad. The 23 w twins actually sits more level than I thought it would, and a single 200 might work fairly well. Hard to compare HP numbers between I/O and OB applications.
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Wow! I'm getting more good ideas and info here than I could have hoped for.
Allan - I'm just a bit north of you near 61 / Lower Afton. The shop thing is a challenge. My garage is full of crap, and wouldn't be big enough if it weren't. I'm going to figure out how to build a tent over the boat in my back yard, so I can use a small propane heater throughout the winter. If you'll PM me your contact info, I'll contact you when I'm ready to dig into things. If I could find shop space for $150 / month or less I might do that, because I also have a business need for a bit of storage. So far, I haven't found sufficient space for anywhere near that price.
I don't need this boat to be a speedster. If I can cruise at 25, and perhaps hit 50 with a speed prop, that'll be plenty.
I'm still learning a lot of the lingo, and trying to make sense of things. I probably will not carve out the middle of the swim deck, but that's mostly because I don't yet know what I'd be cutting into, nor how to make it look pretty after the fact. If I were to cut into the swim deck, perhaps something like this could work?: http://www.spirainternational.com/tipsandtricks/2014/140212_splash_wells_for_spira_boats.html (http://www.spirainternational.com/tipsandtricks/2014/140212_splash_wells_for_spira_boats.html)
But I'm thinking simple cost effective solutions, where possible. So - I think that means a jackplate, if they come long enough, but more likely a transom bracket that extends out. From the transom to the tip of the swim deck measures 25". I don't plan to keep the tanning bed area. That will become seating area, but I will need to leave perhaps a foot of space for battery, 2 cycle oil, etc. Unless I can fit that under the back seat. The "L" shaped seating I envision will sit just shy of the cuddy entrance, and run to the back of the boat. No passenger swivel chair.
Here's the 1st of 3 videos a guy did on a DIY bracket. Does it look sufficiently scary? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoaULRezTdM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoaULRezTdM)
Here's another... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otNYDm51Trk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otNYDm51Trk)
Thanks,
Grant
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I just took a closer look, and I think cutting into the swim deck is a real possibility. Best to use a skill saw, sawzall, or something else? That would leave me with a 23" deep x 30" wide opening. Might still need a jackplate or self-fabricated transom bracket to push the engine out a bit, making room for turning. Still beats $900 for the transom bracket alternative.
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These are the cutters I use. Mini grinder with a metal blade and a viberaiting tool. You can control both very easy and they leave a nice clean cut with no chipping.
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sounds like a cool idea, mods like this are a matter of personal taste but i will toss my opinion in.
i think as far as aesthetics it would look better with a splash well and having the motor cut into the swim platform.
would prob look vary similar to a CVX20 sprint, maybe even find one of them that is junk and use parts from it, though they don't seem that easy to find.
I'm in north st Paul, could hook up some time when you get rolling on the project.
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Nes - I have both tools, so that's good.
Dueceman - Yes, it would be good to connect sometime. Cutting into the swim deck seems like the way to go. Then I probably will get a jack plate. Is there such thing as too much set back? I can get a 5.5" or 10" setback model for almost the same $: http://www.iboats.com/Manual-CMC-Power-Lift/dm/cart_id.025457086--session_id.776527571--view_id.38721 (http://www.iboats.com/Manual-CMC-Power-Lift/dm/cart_id.025457086--session_id.776527571--view_id.38721)
Until I have a motor, it'll be a little difficult to guess how much clearance I need for everything. I really do like the looks of the CVX20 Sprint as well. That would be my next pick, if I didn't care about have lots of seating and a small cuddy.
My outboard experience thus far is all Evinrude V4: A 110 hp and a 115 hp model. They were basically trouble free motors, and on the boats I used them on, they were relatively economical and powerful enough. The more I research, I think an older Optimax is the LAST thing I should be looking for. I'm not really all that partial to any brand. Most important is probably initial purchase and maintenance costs. We run the motor around 50-70 hours a year, so recouping the cost of an Opti in fuel savings would take a long while.
As of this moment, I'm on the lookout for an EFI or carbed 2-stroke motor. 25" shaft, 200 - 250 horse. Something reliable. The good news is I can afford to be patient and wait for the right deal to come along. The local Craigslist is really thin on motor options. I don't know why that is, in this land of 10,000 lakes. Here are a couple possibilities:
https://madison.craigslist.org/bpo/d/yamaha-pro-200-outboard-engine/6306964956.html (https://madison.craigslist.org/bpo/d/yamaha-pro-200-outboard-engine/6306964956.html)
http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?330979-1986-Johnson-225-VRO-For-Sale (http://www.screamandfly.com/showthread.php?330979-1986-Johnson-225-VRO-For-Sale)
Thanks,
Grant
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Both seem to be reasonable deals, but the biggest OB I have experience with is a v6 175 rude. Either should work well for your project. In lieu of a test drive, a compression test, run on muffs and check forward/reverse would be part of my buying checklist. A good close look may reveal discoloration indicating overheat. Good luck.
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If you're looking for cost effectiveness? Think I'd build your 350 and find an outdrive. I would NOT saw into the swim platform/sun deck to hang an outboard on it.
However if your mind's already made up you're gonna need to seriously beef up the transom, stringers, add knees, etc. And find a honkin bracket. (Priced them lately?)
I'm all into "weight" myself, but yer probly gonna need a 250 or so to run mebbe 60-65. And a place to put the fuel to feed it.
There are CV23 clones built for OB power. Just my opinion.
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I made a couple videos so I could get some of your assessments of how extensive I should be in this restoration.
Here are the unlisted links:
https://youtu.be/VUcVEv0r_DA
https://youtu.be/Zp3xbubHv70
Thanks in advance!
Grant
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Adding good wood to rotted wood isn't a great idea, old wood will continue to rot.
Willing to bet what you think is still good wood is also rotting or soon will be ...
As most of us have found, the deeper you dig in the more rot you find.
Jeff had the problem with the rub rail pulling out, wood strip behind it was rotted.
See picture below, on the inside of deck / hull is a wood strip that everything screws into.
Shawn's CV23 rebuild thread ...
http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=3740.0 (http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=3740.0)
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You're tapping on the fiberglass, the wood inside has wicked up all that water... its rotten.
You need to drill core samples with a drill bit until you find dry good wood. You can't say it's solid yet.
Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
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You're converting an I/O to an OB, so you need to rebuild it from scratch to be an OB boat. New transom, new stringers, new reinforcement, you'll have to create a splashwell, cable runs, everything...it's a massive undertaking.
Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
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I have to agree with dorelse, if your going to change to outboard you will have to start from scratch. When I did my jet make over I took it down to the bare hull, rebuilt all stringers and "beefed" them up because you never know how much more stress your going to put on the new project when you change everything and where that stress will show up. And I've also taken enough of these apart and know if any wood is rotten, all of it is.. Good luck. And keep them on the water!
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I've read through the thread again, and the one thing I can't seem to find is a budget for the project. A full stringer, floor, and transom rebuild is expensive, and a 23 has plenty to replace. Not trying to throw a wet blanket on your dreams, but it will take a lot of time and money to restore back to an I/O configuration, likely more to make a conversion. Shawn would be an excellent resource to determine costs involved, though a number of other enthusiest on here have done them as well, Shawn just more recent than others. As for your current status as shown in the videos, the glass hides the rot. As Doran mentioned, you need to drill and inspect. Know before you commit. Patchwork will not last. Much like rust repair, you have to get it all, or it just comes back.
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Thanks for all the input. Yeah, it's looking more and more like a few year project. Gotta fit it in between the rest of life. I've just started finishing my basement, so I probably won't make much real progress 'till next Summer.
As for a splashwell... I'm thinking that all I need to do is get the motor far enough back and up, that it won't be necessary. None of the 3 pics in Hyperacme's Reply #7 have splashwells. Am I missing something? I plan to cut about 25" wide x 18" deep out of the swim deck, then construct a 8" fixed jackplate (https://www.discountsteel.com/items/6061_Aluminum_American_Standard_Channel.cfm?item_id=128&size_no=23#skus), then add a 4" manual jackplate (https://www.vancemfg.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=JPL5400&CartID=1) to that.
How "beefy" is a beefy stringer? 3/4" ply x total height, plus a 3/4" x 2" top reinforcing strip, glassed over with something really tough?
I haven't yet determined a budget. The following are my best guesses, which might be way off:
Boat purchase & transportation (done) $900.00
Outboard purchase & transport (probably Yamaha OX66 225hp) $3,700.00
Outboard controls & cable $400.00
8" Fixed Jackplate + 4" manual jackplate shipped $350.00
Will I need new gauges? $400.00
Battery $100.00
Stringers, floor, transom, wood etc, $1,000.00
Paint or gel, fiberglass filler, etc $500.00
Paint / Gel spray gun & other tools $200.00
Foam $500.00
Labor for the places where I get stuck $1,000.00
Total $9,050.00
Ouch. That was a little more than I was thinking. But I also have no set timeline, so it can be done as funds and time permit.
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Your estimate might be a bit low, but you can re coup some money selling the transom plate, manifolds, engine parts, etc. Probably hang onto the trim pump till you know the final configuration. Many parts can be found reasonably at swap meets, Craigslist, eBay and such. Finish the tear out, then you'll have a better idea of what you need.
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To do the transom on my CV16 cost about $400 ... Wood/2 1/2 gal. poly resin/fiberglass/measuring cups/catalyst/etc.
Your $1000 estimate is pretty low ...
Express Composites is the best ! Very helpful ...
http://www.expresscomposites.com/ (http://www.expresscomposites.com/)
A Seastar hydraulic steering system will run you about $1000.
SeaStar Solutions No Feedback Twin Cable Rack-and-Pinion Steering System will be about $500.
Not sure what mods would need to be done to stringers to turn it into an outboard.
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If I remember I went threw five, 5 gallon buckets of resin on my 23 rebuild. If changing and cutting transom I would add one more bucket. I also had to replace ALL the wood and re-core the front deck. As for thickness of the transom mine was two, 3/4 plywood boards and about 5/8 inch of glass/resin for a total thickness of about 2 1/8.
I think the 1,000 for floor and stringers is fairly close (wood, glass, resin).
My thoughts below.
Boat purchase & transportation (done) $900.00
Outboard purchase & transport (probably Yamaha OX66 225hp) $3,700.00
Outboard controls & cable $400.00
8" Fixed Jackplate + 4" manual jackplate shipped $350.00
Will I need new gauges? $400.00 Yes I believe outboard and inboard are different may be wrong. Mine new were about 200
Battery $100.00
Stringers, floor, transom, wood etc, $1,000.00
Paint or gel, fiberglass filler, etc $500.00. I would add about 1,000 depending on color and if you are doing the whole boat. Sandpaper and tape add up quickly Try SPI Inc. for paint I used it on my last 2 restorations and it worked really good.
Paint / Gel spray gun & other tools $200.00
Foam $500.00 I can't remember what I spent but I don't think it was this much.
Labor for the places where I get stuck $1,000.00
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Anybody wanna buy a CVX23? :)
Kidding. Not ready to give up yet, but wow. I know there's a lot I don't know, but I'm learning the extent of that. I really appreciate everyone's help.
Fireman24 - I'm learning a lot from your thread. Are you saying that the Paint or gel, fiberglass filler, section should be $1000, or did you mean $500 + $1000?
If I could find a donor boat with a big engine, that might be the way to go.
Grant
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I would budget 1500 for paint, primer, sand paper filler, etc. Just buying the paint gets expensive. I used SPI Inc universal clear and their epoxy primer on the last 2 boats I did. The one I drove for about 4 years before selling and the paint held up really well.
I found a donor boat for my rebuild and took the drive assembly, engine accessories, wiring, controls , and a few odds and ends off of it.
It will be a lot of work to convert it over Good luck.
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I read through your original post again. Correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like the motivation for the outboard it so you can put in a larger L shaped seating area. In reality you are only going to gain about 2 maybe 3 feet of extra room on the one side of the bench. When we are out in the boat anchored or beached. there is almost always someone sitting on the rear sun pad on the boat. Also the passenger would be sitting sideways while moving, most people will want to face forward while under way.
Just a thought, but changing it to an outboard vs rebuilding it like stock will be a lot of work and will only be a minimal gain in my opinion. I personally would prefer the sun pad over seating for 1 maybe 2 more people. Also keep in mind the capacity of the boat. Just because you can seat 10 people don't mean you can have 10 people legally on the boat. 5-6 people on a boat gets crowded pretty quickly considering where are coolers, food, cloths, towels, toys, etc going. I put most of that stuff in the back storage next to the engine on mine.
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Good point Shawn. I know for my wife the sun deck is a necessity!