Author Topic: Ok, I have a question  (Read 10395 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline scott r bishop

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
    • RecordTogether
Ok, I have a question
« on: September 24, 2012, 08:38:50 PM »
Why are boat driver/passenger sides reversed?  I'm genuinely curious...
1980 CVX-18
1989 CSS-19

Offline Hyperacme

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13327
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2012, 08:44:03 PM »
prop torque

Offline David CVX-16

  • Donate members
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3733
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2012, 08:54:25 PM »
"The prop of boats rotates clockwise so the boat lifts on the right, so putting the steering wheel and the weight of the driver counteracts this lift and thus the boat runs without tilt or much less then if the steering wheel would be on the left."
 
David
87' CVX-16, 85' 115 HP Johnson, 58.8 MPH GPS w/ 23" SRX Prop

Offline Rosscoe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4444
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2012, 09:02:21 PM »
I often wondered that myself but was afraid to ask.
Ross
61 Surflite 1964 90HP Johnson project
67 V163 Bayflite Super Sport  1989 100HP Merc
67 V164 Bayflite 120HP
67 V174 Crestflite Rat Rod
71 V175 Crestflite 350ci -Jet
73 GT 160
84 CVX 17  83 115 Merc
88 CVX-23 350 Mag

Offline scott r bishop

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
    • RecordTogether
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2012, 09:17:07 PM »
I often wondered that myself but was afraid to ask.
Well, you didn't have too, and now I look like the idiot :-)  Thanks for the answers guys, it just struck me odd when I was looking at the photos I have of the 16 as we put it up for sale.  In retrospect, it makes sense for weight distribution - I just never would have thought of that.
1980 CVX-18
1989 CSS-19

Offline Hyperacme

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13327
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2012, 09:29:09 PM »
You'll never know, until you ask !

Offline thedeuceman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3359
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2012, 09:41:41 PM »
i wondered the same thing, thanks Scott  :)
Joe
75 GT150 "SeaDeuced"... Its Back !!
92 16CSS "Attitude Adjustment" is for sale
75 CV-16V8, Project
74 CV-16... its Purple !

Offline wexrocks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 634
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2012, 09:45:51 PM »
not meant to dispute anything... but my 20' Sleekcraft outboard was LH steer. now that was a unique hull, almost a flatbottom at the rear, probably helped to displace the torque. very stable, and safe at speeds of 100+. had a 200 Merc that was worked to around 230hp, ran in the low 80's on glass water but not much fun on anything else. it was neat to sit LH, got lots of attention. I think Sleekcraft made it LH as a novelty, not sure that it would have made much difference with that hull, but with a noticeable "V" style hull, I believe what was stated to be true.
'79 CVZ-19 "convertible" w/Evinrude 175
'81 Scimitar
'89 CSS-19

Offline OleRed

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1688
    • Oklahoma Boating Group
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2012, 10:06:16 PM »
not many have left hand steer, but I have seen a few, if you've noticed, many of the older boats had left hand steer, mainly because the cars were, but beginning in the late 50's early 60's boats with the Merc's, the dockbusters, the props turned counter clockwise, pushing the right side of the boat down, so they held onto the left side steering location.   many jet drives held on to left side steer thru the 60's.
1980 23ft Scimitar

Offline Jason

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5564
  • 1974 CV16SS, 1986 CV23
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2012, 10:52:02 PM »
thats what I always kind of figured too. In the steeper V hulls like the V172 and my old V173 it's a lot more noticeable.
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O

Offline bellj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 237
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2012, 10:59:02 PM »
Yes, I've seen left, center, and right wheels - but of course right (starboard) wheels are the most popular on single engine models for the fore-mentioned prop torque correction.

I have always been amazed at what seems like an unfortunate side affect of the starboard wheel at our favorite local lake...it has always seemed on busier holiday weekends that there are a lot of people who must only bring out their boats approximately three times a year...and of course if you are only going to venture out those few times why would you take the time to read the regulations...so I've always been amused (and slightly irritated during my resulting "avoidance" maneuvers) of how many of them seem to have reasoned out that with the steering wheel on the "right" that the right of way must naturally then be the opposite (left instead of right).

Luckily, most years you don't see them as much on the "off" or "regular" weekends...except unusually hot summers like this last one. I even had one a couple weeks ago while we were pulling a tube that turned right toward me and tried to go right across my bow - we had to turn hard and stop because he never intended to (why would someone pulling a tube (with kids no less) or skier have the right of way??)! That probably doesn't happen as much where most of you guys are from - but goofy things like that sure do around here for some reason!   ;)
Jim, Patti, & Samantha
'69 Pipestone Princess O/B, '57 Evinrude Lark 35
'77 Glastron GT-150 O/B, '78 Merc 700, "The Puddle Jumper"
'77 Switzer GL-20 O/B, '77 Merc 1750
'86 Glastron CVX-20 O/B, '86 Merc 200, "The WHIZZard of Odds"

Offline Jerry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2902
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2012, 01:02:15 AM »
Pre 70 the steering was dealer installed (some exceptions) I was told if it had a Merc the helm was put on the port side, if it was to get an OMC or Scott, it was Starboard, Something to do with engine torque????? I have 2 with left hand drive. The Classic Barracuda (next on my bucket list) and my 63 Glasspar Seafair Sunliner. The Glasspar was the only Glasspar I ever saw with left drive, It's also the only one I know of with an I/O. I'm sure it's factory installed. Mostly it was up to whoever bought it, and what side of the dock they wanted to grab on to.



'72 Glastron GT160 Sport - Okie-Dokie
'63 Winner - Grandpa's Fisn-Bote
'63 Glasspar SeaFair Sunliner - Mischief Maker

Offline Hyperacme

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13327
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2012, 03:18:12 PM »
I think every Carlson Challenger & Contender I've seen have had LH steering.


Offline Jason

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5564
  • 1974 CV16SS, 1986 CV23
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2012, 05:05:34 PM »
I think it's more of flat bottom boat thing that works with LH steering. Kind of hard to twist a flat bottom boat with prop torque.
Jason S.
1974 Glastron Carlson CV16SS 140 I/O
1986 Glastron Carlson CV23 260 I/O

Offline David CVX-16

  • Donate members
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3733
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2012, 06:05:16 PM »
The old Merc's had dockbuster props that rotated in the opposite (lefthanded) direction so the driver's postion was the same as in cars.
David
87' CVX-16, 85' 115 HP Johnson, 58.8 MPH GPS w/ 23" SRX Prop

Offline scott r bishop

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 155
    • RecordTogether
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2012, 11:11:10 PM »
Ok, let's take it a step further - for fun :-).  Where do you seat a driver on a dual prop counter rotating boat (Volvo), and what's the reasoning?  I'm loving the boat knowledge being poured out in this thread.
1980 CVX-18
1989 CSS-19

Offline Jerry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2902
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2012, 12:56:59 AM »
Today you don't get a choice.
'72 Glastron GT160 Sport - Okie-Dokie
'63 Winner - Grandpa's Fisn-Bote
'63 Glasspar SeaFair Sunliner - Mischief Maker

Offline David CVX-16

  • Donate members
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3733
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2012, 01:50:42 AM »
I would say that counter rotating boats would seat the driver on the right. Either left or right would not be the very best, but usually there is other weight in the boat to help make the left-right distribution, such as other passengers, 6-gallon tanks of gas, coolers, etc.

On Allisons, often there is only one seat in the front for the driver, and this may have a slide mechanism whereby the seat can be adjusted to go right or left to get the best weight balance.  

Quoting from Allison literature for the XB-2003 Bass Boat  "The ProSport features a unique console designed for side or center steering and provides full wind protection for all passengers. Side steering is standard. Center steering on this bass boat is a no cost option. Optional side-slide seat track allows the boat to be driven from the center or side."



 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 01:56:39 AM by David CVX-16 »
David
87' CVX-16, 85' 115 HP Johnson, 58.8 MPH GPS w/ 23" SRX Prop

Offline Hyperacme

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13327
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2012, 06:32:24 PM »
My guess is ...
Thats the way it was done, so they just kept doing it ...


http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1664/how-come-power-boats-have-the-steering-wheel-on-the-right-side


http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/43031


The location of steering controls is largely a matter of preference and specific design of a vessel. For example, on my 42' patrol ship the controls are on the left or port, possibly so the instruments and navigation equipment are more easily accessible on the right hand side of the operator, for more comfortable operation of controls on the radar, radios sounder and GPS recievers. Other than the steering controls the ship is a mirror image on either side, with twin engines, twin screw (left turning on starboard, right hand turning on port side), entrances, water tanks, fuel tanks, cleats and windows arranged in identical layout on each side. The only differences from side to side are minor things like the port engine charging a 12V system and PTO to bilge/fire pumps and the starboard running a 32V alternator. The ship is layed out symmetrically, but the entranceway to the forecastle located in the center of the steering house prevented the same design for the controls, necessitating the location off to one side. The fabricators likely flipped a coin to decide, or debated many points, but there is no general rule stating they must be on the right.

Small craft which do not have center consoles like a bike are usually on the right, possibly so the throttles and gear levers can be operated by the dominant right hand of the predominantly right handed, and be mounted securely to the interior wall of the hull out of the way.

Outboard motors usually come with the steering arm attached, protruding from the right hand side, and the steering and throttle cables, electrical wires and fuel lines all coming out a harness on the right. To install the console on the left would require either changing the engine configuration, or routing the harness through the right side and passing over to the left, requiring an exceptionally long harness in a circuitous semi-circular layout with very tight bends which are not conducive to the longevity of the hardware.

Engine manufacturers likely stick to the one side to reduce the cost of designing the engines and maintain competitive pricing, likewise boat builders would need good reason to switch to the port side on outboard power, as it would increase building time and cost. The decision to make the side of choice, as another answer indicates, is likely the result of inertia resulting from archaic designs using the starboard side, while in modern craft center consoles are more prevalent in large ships, medium sized vessels could be either side, and small craft are predominantly oriented with the steering station on the starboard side. Many small craft and medium sized vessels are also increasingly incorporating center steering
consoles, to balance loading and...center consoles on small craft allow the operator to straddle a seat, which is much more stable and better for absorbing impact and vibration, also in larger craft it allows for better visibility, particularly when docking or in close maneuvres on the 'off' side. Positioning the helmsman in the center gives them a better feel for what the vessel is doing, where it is and where it is going, it is all-round the best position and preferable for any craft which allows it by design. Often in rough seas I find myself standing off to the side of my steering station, in the center of balance of the ship, and operating it from the center even though it is located to the left of the wheelhouse.

The following advice is offered with qualification and disclaimer: advanced pilotage in rough seas should not be attempted by inexperienced operators. The advice in this section will in no way equip the operator to deal with situations which might arise in rough water and though the information is accurate it is not intended to be educational, but is for entertainment only. The skills necessary to handle rough water can only be developed under supervised operation and practice in controlled and safe conditions.

Notmrjohn, I guess I should add that in rough weather and small craft, at least in the vessels under 100 tonnes which I have operated, as much time is dedicated to running the throttles as steering, which is why in off-shore race boats there are two operators, a steering driver and a throttle man. Especially in very large following seas, the throttles must be opened and closed with every wave, as you crest a wave and run downhill, down the front of the wave, the throttle must be cut back to avoid pitchpoling or diving into the next wave in front of you, also as you pass through the bottom of the trough you must again apply power delicately and judiciously to accelerate up the back of the next wave you attack. Also heading into the waves throttling is important, as rogue waves and waves slightly higher or steeper than average necessitate slowing to prevent smashing out the windows and downflooding, or getting airborne off the crest, possibly landing on the face of the next wave, with the hull parallel to the face and little forward momentum, a situation very good at breaking boats, equipment or crew. Even in beam seas the throttle is worked constantly, to surf down a wave in the desired direction, yet avoid clapotic waves, the boat is either accelerated or slowed, to stay on the same wave and course, yet avoid the bigger waves and breaking waves by altering not direction, but speed. A good mariner in small craft can make a very smooth ride in very bad sea states by combining steering directions combined with throttle applications. Even in smaller waves the throttle and angle of attack can be manipulated so that the boat skips from the crest of one wave to the next, with the bow riding high and accelerating throughout the launch so the stern drops and the bow rises, the overall effect is the bow remaining relatively stationary and high, not slapping into the waves and causing rapid negative acceleration and jarring, while the waves slap against the aft section of the hull. Throttles must be adjusted often as wave heights, frequency and shape change due to variations in currents, shoals and wind. Operating the steering wheel with one hand is not a daredevil escapade, but a necessity, to free up a hand for operating the throttle.

Not that all boat operators use these techniques, probably a lot less than the majority do, but for those very proficient at running in rough seas and making good time without damaging the boat, it is a finely tuned skill, the operation of steering and throttles together, particularly if there is more than one engine. I've been running down the face of a particularly large wave, with the wave pushing the stern ahead and sideways, the bow digging into the wave in front, trying to half broach, half pitchpole my boat, and the only thing that stopped it was putting one engine ahead and one in reverse with the rudders over to regain control, the entire sequence of events from the wave hitting to turning the rudder to compensate, reducing throttle on one engine to assist, increasing throttle on the other engine to have wash over the rudder to turn, reversing the other engine, applying throttle to the reversed engine, resuming normal operation by reversing all these steps, takes about 3-5 seconds. There's definitely no time for thinking things through or having second thoughts or hesitation of any kind, critical interventions must be performed in a timely and effective manner, as instinctive reactions as the result of developing these skills through use. Running in heavy seas is not for the inexperienced mariner, that is, not heavy seas as defined by the summer time recreational fisherman, but 40-60 foot breaking waves, or even smaller waves of 20 feet if they are extremely rough, close together and steep. It is somewhat similar to riding a bike, in that there are many who can ride a bike, or boat, but very few can operate it well enough to compete in moto x dirt bike races, or rough weather. While many of the less experienced dirt bike riders might be able to go around the track without incident, as many boaters go out in rough seas and survive, the difference between a couch potato driving a boat and a professional is just as pronounced as if a spectator jumped on a dirt bike and tried to compete in an actual race against professional racers.

Jon Perryman writes "Most boats have a right turning propeller which pulls the right side up. Having the steering on that side will balance out the boat better. There are some boats that the propeller turns the opposite direction and will have the steering on the left. Newer boat designs have eliminated a lot of this but it still exists to some extent." While this answer is very close, I would like to point out that while the turning of the propeller to the right might cause the boat to tilt in the opposite direction, from transfer of angular momentum, while in transit the rudder redirecting the propwash typically compensates for this effect and balances the boat, except when becoming airborne, which requires turning the steering wheel just as you leave the water and back to center rudder as you re-enter the water. On outboards there is usually a fin shaped zinc anode on the underside of the cavitation plate which is used to fine tune this lateral thrust, not only reducing imbalanced forces on the steering system, but it also has that effect of balancing the boat if tuned correctly. On larger craft the rudder will simply be off center, or on the rudder indicator center rudder will not actually be center, but slightly off to whatever position keeps you straight and level.

The direction of the spinning of the props is a valid point, though, but for a different reason. When reversing the engines the direction of the rotation has more effect on the movement of the vessel than reverse thrust. For example, while reversing a right turning propller it will tend to draw the stern to the right, as well as back. So, when at a dock it is preferable to put the left side in, since when you go astern it will pull you away from the dock, then when backing and filling the center of mass will be further from the dock when you go ahead with left rudder the bow will be further from the dock, allowing longer rotation before backing again with the net effect of drawing the entire ship away from the dock instead of the bow drifting into the dock as you stop backing and transfer the momentum into rotational movement with the forward w/left rudder.
If you were to park with the right side in, you could still get off the dock, of course, it would just take more effort and you may even need to use springlines if there is even a slight wind or current pushing you onto the dock. This being the case, it is wise to place the helm where you can see the left side of the ship, since it will most often be toward the dock.

(I might be wrong about the balance, but I'm pretty sure about the drawing away of the stern in the second part)


« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 06:40:39 PM by Hyperacme »

Offline Jerry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2902
Re: Ok, I have a question
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2012, 08:31:23 PM »
TMI  lol
'72 Glastron GT160 Sport - Okie-Dokie
'63 Winner - Grandpa's Fisn-Bote
'63 Glasspar SeaFair Sunliner - Mischief Maker