Glastron Carlson CV-23 Rebuild Top to Bottom

[75starflight]

Good luck Shawn! 64 - 68 mph is flying in a 23

[Rosscoe]

Sam's as in Sam's marine?

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[still_fishin]

I kind of want to try the hydromotive, it would be fitting, intimidator and all.  The 23 you tried was a turbo.  Where are you going to be this weekend?

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[Plugcheck]

Am I the only one concerned with outdrive durability?  The bigger the prop and wheel size, the more traction, and thus more stress on the drive.  A 23 is rather heavy compared to a 18-20 cvx, and that puts more stress on parts.  But hey, if it works and lives with a 27 or bigger, then that's just good info to know.  Best of luck.

[fireman24mn]

Tim I will be at TI all weekend will probably head down around 2 pm today if I can get out of the office. We will be around until Monday afternoon. I will have all 3 props there. Mine and the 2 rented ones.

Mike. The 23 only weights 450 more than an CVX 18. (CVX 18, 950LB. CV-23 1400 lbs stock). Biggest difference would be amount of fuel that they hold. 18 having a 27 gal and the 23 having a 50.  Now also consider I probably removed around 500 Lbs of weight when I rebuilt it between different engine parts and some different wood thicknesses and different materials. Also keep in mind that there is no hook so there is less drag and the drive is higher so again less drag.

 I asked some questions on another forum and someone put my numbers with the 25 4 blade Powertech in and they said the calculation that were coming back was about 25% slip.

[Hyperacme]

Is 25% pretty high ?
10% to 15% being average ?
Is standard CV23 /260 Merc speed about 55 MPH ?

[fireman24mn]

Yes

Yes

And Yes

[David CVX-16]

Hydromotive makes props for sport boats with different characteristics in their Intimidator III, IV, and IV-X .

http://hydromotive.com/products/propellers/intimidator-quad-iv-x/

Does Mercury Marine offer anything?

[fireman24mn]

So I just tried the Mercury Rev 4 and got 67.3. It gets on plane instantly. However my Rpms are still 5600. Thinking I will need a bigger pitch after all. I will try the Hydromotive prop later today or tomorrow.


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[still_fishin]

So I just tried the Mercury Rev 4 and got 67.3. It gets on plane instantly. However my Rpms are still 5600. Thinking I will need a bigger pitch after all. I will try the Hydromotive prop later today or tomorrow.


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I'm a little scared to get my tach working correctly if you are spinning that large hub prop to 5600rpm and 67.3 mph. From using Mercury's online prop slip calculator you are seeing 24% slip (I could be doing it wrong though). Average is 10-15 I thought. 

Here is a thought. .....I think with the height of your drive and consistent excessive prop slip numbers from different pitches and styles of nonsurfacing props  makes trying a surfacing type of prop necessary to keep the prop grabbing water.  That hydromotive might be your new best friend. 

Or you could try one of the props from your really big boat. ....

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[fireman24mn]

So I tried the 2 props this weekend. The Merc Rev 4 I was able to run 67.3 and still about 5600 RPM's. Handles great but still to many rpm's still.  Next day I tried the Hydromotive and was able to hit 68.4 with pretty much the same Rpm's.

Pretty sure I am going to need a bigger pitch. I really liked the hydromotive so I might try and find a 27 to try.

So now the not so good news.  On Sunday we ran up the river to the Kinni. Got just about there and heard a couple very loud clunks. You could tell by the sound it was not something we hit but something in the drive.  I slowed down and to idle then put it back into gear, all you could hear was a growing sound coming from the drive.  I ended up getting towed back to Prescott where a friend drove my truck and trailer so we could load up the boat instead of towing it all the way back with all the boat traffic.

I ended up ordering up a SEI drive.  I figured that a used drive is almost the cost of a new one and you never know what you are getting. That and the SEI drive has a 3 year warranty. I have not pulled the drive apart yet to see what failed. Hoping its the lower then I can at least sell the upper.  Either way I am hoping I can get a few hundred for the drive to help offset the cost.

Now back to prop testing.....

[David CVX-16]

Try Scream and Fly under props for sale, use the searchword "hydromotive"

Bob's Machine Shop sells Hydromotive props

http://www.bobsmachine.com/Hydromotive-Engineering-Propellers_c39.htm?page=all

[Jason]

I burned up the upper gears in my mercruiser drive on the 23. Put in an SEI I think 4 years ago now. No problems since. There is a bit of a break in procedure though that will limit your fun. They have a whine when new but slowly goes away. 68 is still really good!

[Plugcheck]

      Big boat, Big engine, Big Prop, Little Alpha drive, it was only a matter of time.   I suspect the top is blown out, but the bottom gears or dogs could also be suspect.  Reverse make the same noises?   I've heard great things about the SEI's and their warranty, but I've never personally owned one.  Hopefully the new one will last, doesn't seem to be a lot that can be done with an Alpha to make them stand up to big block torque levels, even Mercruiser abandoned the idea, but I will say the 1.36 ratio set is a stronger gear set than the 1.5/1.49.  Does SEI offer a "Performance" alpha for use in HP applications north of 300hp?    Not going to say "I told ya so" but I tore my pre-alpha to shreds with the new motor, so now I'm trying to be nicer to the replacement Alpha.   I've hit mid sixties running a trophy four blade 25p at 5100 rpms, but afraid to push any harder as the drive is the weak link.   

[fireman24mn]

I just dropped off the Props back at Sam's Performance Marine in Stillwater.  Great group of guys. I was talking to him about the drives, props, my setup and it sounded like they have never used a SEI drive. He agreed the warranty is great but never dealt with them.  I know if there is a problem that you have to pay for shipping back and forth. Plus they has to inspect your drive. Most claims from what I have heard can take 2-4 weeks. Not sure I can handle no boat for that long with our already short season.

 He mentioned that he has a customer with a Baja running a SBC 406 with close to 500 hp and torq on an alpha drive. Sounds like he has been running the same drive for about 3-4 years with out a problem. I am sure that boat weighs about the same as mine probably more. I have been on a lot of other forums talking about props and my set up.  There are a lot of people running some big hp engines on Alpha and spinning the up to 5600 rpm. I know the alpha is a weaker drive however if you watch the hole shot which I do and maintain the drive it sounds like they stand up to the HP pretty good.

My parts boat was in pretty bad shape and you could tell it was neglected. The props that were in the boat were pretty chewed up. Who knows when fluid was changed or how many rocks they hit. Who know if that drive was even original to the boat.

I was talking to Sam's about the 1.32 and he didn't recommend switching and it also sounded like the gear set isn't any stronger, with one of the gears actually being weaker. No one makes a performance "Heavy Duty" drive. The SS drives are better however I don't think I could even use one on my boat.  My engine is also not that big of HP, it is only about 360 hp and 410 on torque.

That said I canceled my order from SEI and am going to be buying a drive from Sam's. I would also rather keep my money at a local shop then a company out of FL.

[Plugcheck]

     Definitely something to be said about buying local.   If you described your application, and he recommended a "Sam's Drive" with warranty, not sure how you could go wrong.   I was not aware the drive that you were using was simply a used drive off the parts boat, was thinking you had been through it already.   Some Baja's, like a 232 Islander di feature a SBC/Alpha combo which may be quite similar to a CV-23, however, this is with a Merc 260.  I think a higher HP/Higher torque engine could have a drive that survives if your easy on the throttle, but doesn't that go against what we wanted out of the bigger motors?   I always thought a 23 with a BBC and Bravo 1 drive would be the hot set up, maybe even add a blower or turbo?

 My old drive came apart when during speed runs, inching up mid sixties and trimming up.   Suddenly going to nothing, engine hitting the rev limiter, and a dead outdrive made for a rather violent coming off plane. 

 If your inching towards 70 mph in a 23, sounds like I need to up my game in the Intimidator?

Will you have the new drive set up for more prop testing this year?  or is this a next season possibility? 

[fireman24mn]

Changed gears a little again I am going to stick a used drive on for the rest of this year and then buy parts and have my drive rebuilt over the winter.

Not sure if I will get any more prop testing done. It is hard to find any props in the pitch range I need to test or buy reasonably in the area. I did find B Blades online and they have a prop testing program. $55 per prop plus shipping back and forth. You have 14 days from when it leaves them to them getting it back.

Talked to them and he recommended trying a 28p Brovo 1 prop or a 27p Trophy plus.

[Green with Envy]

I'm not an outdrive expert, but I work with one.

My Story:

1984 Searay Sundancer 26 ft., 260hp Mercruiser 350, Alpha drive.

I swapped out the engine 3 years ago for a mildly built 383 stroker,  est. 405 hp, torque unknown, top speed: 41 mph @ 4500 rpm.  Tom at Miss Croix has been working on outdrives for 40 years.  He says that it is not the HP, but the torque that kills the drives.

My boat is 5,000+ lbs.  I never 'holeshot' or 'jack-rabbit' start.  A month ago, I replaced the engine with a brand new Mercruiser 350 MPI Alpha crate engine, 325 hp.  Mercruiser designed and built this engine and certified it's use with an alpha.  Tom went through my lower unit, per the 3 year extended warranty, and said it is still within specs internally and nothing is worn.  This is the original 34 year old alpha.

I am certainly not criticizing or judging the way people use their equipment, because I love the rush of power and speed, too. But, if you treat your boat like it is at the quarter-mile track every time you take off, why would you not expect it to wear out or break?  I believe that you can get many trouble free years of use out of an alpha if you ease up on plane. Once there try to break the top speed record

IMO
Allan

[fireman24mn]

I'm not an outdrive expert, but I work with one.

My Story:

1984 Searay Sundancer 26 ft., 260hp Mercruiser 350, Alpha drive.

I swapped out the engine 3 years ago for a mildly built 383 stroker,  est. 405 hp, torque unknown, top speed: 41 mph @ 4500 rpm.  Tom at Miss Croix has been working on outdrives for 40 years.  He says that it is not the HP, but the torque that kills the drives.

My boat is 5,000+ lbs.  I never 'holeshot' or 'jack-rabbit' start.  A month ago, I replaced the engine with a brand new Mercruiser 350 MPI Alpha crate engine, 325 hp.  Mercruiser designed and built this engine and certified it's use with an alpha.  Tom went through my lower unit, per the 3 year extended warranty, and said it is still within specs internally and nothing is worn.  This is the original 34 year old alpha.

I am certainly not criticizing or judging the way people use their equipment, because I love the rush of power and speed, too. But, if you treat your boat like it is at the quarter-mile track every time you take off, why would you not expect it to wear out or break?  I believe that you can get many trouble free years of use out of an alpha if you ease up on plane. Once there try to break the top speed record

IMO
Allan

As I stated many times before I don't hole shot it hard I always ease into the throttle. The drive failed while I was on plane going up the St Croix at about 2,600 rpm. Same speed I had drove all the way up from Treasure Island.

All the forums and people I have talked to there are hundreds of people that have high HP engines on Alphas. You just said you even did on a boat that weighs double what mine does and would have A LOT more resistance going threw the water. Why did you need to change out an engine after 3 years? The 383 you swapped in has more HP then the one I am running. Did you read any of my above posts?

[Green with Envy]

I did read the whole thread.  Sorry if you thought this was directed at you specifically, it wasn't.  Mostly, I was replying to the other responses and queries as to why these failures happen and I was just giving my experiences on the subject.

Most CGOAMN members understand the need to respect the limits of their equipment.  I meant no disrespect.

Allan