Minnesota Classic Glastron Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: NBD925 on August 29, 2020, 03:12:18 PM
-
Hello, I have a 1972 Glastron Bayflite V16 with the Volvo AQ130 engine. I get a top speed of 25 MPH and RPM of 3950. This seems very low to me. I thought this boat would go at least 30MPH if not a little faster. I have tried a lower pitch prop (14x16) and got 26 MPH (With GPS) at 4500 RPM
Is this all the faster this boat is? I’m ok with it going slower but just thought maybe our boat was not at its full potential.
Boat does have some scum on the bottom but not a terrible amount.
Here are some current boat specs:
Prop: 14x19
RPM: 3950
Speed: 25 MPH (Read on GPS)
Elevation: 4000 feet
Or
Prop: 14x16
RPM: 4500
Speed: 26 MPH (Read on GPS)
Elevation: 4000
-
Not sure about the I/O Glastron's .. but outboards had rubber stoppers in holes to drain under floor.
Check for plugs or any blockage and tilt boat up as far as it will go to see if water is trapped.
Have you checked compression / timing / is carb clean and adjusted / plugs / wires / etc. ?
Motor spec's & prop suggestions don't start until 1976 in Glastron P.I.G.'s
Volvo Penta still has owners manuals for motor & drives on there web site ..
If you can't find them .. I could email them to you. PM me your address.
The 1973 V174 is about same weight and size as your and lists a 14 X 19 prop.
Looks like 5100 RPM's is MAX.
-
Your rubber plugs could be where red circles are ..
-
I will check the drains tomorrow but it has been a consistent problem for the last 20 or more years.
Here is what we have done to try to fix the problem. Also the new results. Still very low but a slight improvement.
Checked Compression:
Cylinder 1: 147
Cylinder 2: 147
Cylinder 3: 148
Cylinder 4: 148
Installed New Water Pump Impeller
Installed New Water Pump Seals and O-ring for between seals (oil and water slinger)
Installed new Water Pump Rubber Shaft Engagement
Installed new water pump Shaft 822994-2
Installed New Fuel Pump 273132
Installed new Bosch Plugs W5B
Gapped Spark Plugs to .30
Adjusted Carb Linkage (Throttle Plates we’re not fully opening) Throttle forks were not properly set.
Adjusted Timing to 12 degrees and checked advance at 28 degrees
Adjusted trim bolt to raise motor
Adjusted steering trim tab
New results:
Engine: AQ130
Hour Meter: 910
Prop: Michigan Wheel SMC-549 14x19
4150 - 4200 RPM
Speed 28- 29 MPH checked with GPS
Elevation: 4000 feet
Slight scum on bottom of boat
1/4 tank of fuel as a weight reference
Thank you for the kind offer of the information. That picture of the boat on the top is my boat. Gold and Sand V164 with AQ130 I do have the original books for this boat. I noticed the Speed listed as 35-37
I have a ways to go. I just can’t figure out what else to do?
-
I have checked the rubber stoppers and there is no water in the hull. I didn’t think there would be only because this has been a problem for over 20 years. I don’t think this boat has ever hit 30 MPH
Does anyone have any ideas what to check or what could be going on here? It seems like I’m missing 600-800 RPM with this 14x19 prop combination. I could always prop down to the 14x16 but I think that would be masking the Real problem.
-
Maybe boat's tested in the Glastron P.I.G.'s had optional tilt & trim ?
I only have a basic knowledge of I/O's and even less about Volvo I/O's.
Glastron brochures and P.I.G.'s can be found here ..
https://www.glastron.com/us/catalogs-and-product-information
Glastron owners manuals are here ..
https://www.glastron.com/uploads/2017/3/Glastron-Manual-70s-IO.pdf
Volvo Penta manuals ..
https://www.volvopenta.com/marineleisure/en-en/for-owners/your-engine/manuals---handbooks.html
-
Thanks for all the info Gregg. That will be very helpful! I hope someone can chime in with an idea of what to check or how to get more Speed. I’m kind of stumped right now. I’m not sure what else I can do. I might get a brush and try to really clean the Hull. It can only help I guess. There has to be something that’s not quite right here.
-
If you have a lot of scum on the bottom it can slow you down. Muriatic acid will clean that off nicely but it’s nasty stuff you don’t want to get on you. Can buy at any local hardware store. Spray it on, let it soak, then pressure wash.
-
I would clean the hull and wax to protect it. I've used Star Brite, easy on, easy off and it works well. Even used toilet bowl cleaner which does a good job. I think it works because it has muratic acid in it. Wear gloves and eye protection. Not making 30 mph does seem odd, maybe try a smaller wheel in the same pitch? I've heard that dynos exist to check HP at the prop, but I've never had a boat tested. Could the exhaust be clogged up?
-
Just read your post on CGOA forum .. http://www.classicglastron.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11688
You list "Elevation: 4000 feet" .. Maybe carb jetting ?
I know Merc Alpha's have different ratio's for different HP motors, not sure if 270 Volvo's do also.
Maybe you got wrong ratio from factory.
Had a cruiser that I slipped, by end of summer it lost a few MPH from scum, maybe 2 to 3 MPH.
But it was like grass was growing on bottom .. Algae
-
Update so far. I don’t have any water in my hull that I can see. Everything is dry. I’m leaning toward the main jet not being properly sized for my elevation on the dual Solex PA44 carbs.
I decided to do a test tonight. I ran the boat full speed for 1-2 miles. While running, I took down the standard measurements, 4250 RPM @ 29 MPH. I think the slight increase in RPM From 4200 is due to the cooler air temps. Previous air temps were 85-90 and tonight it is a colder 56 degrees. Toward the end of my 2 mile sprint at full speed I shut off the key and cut the throttle. I was hoping this would freeze the Spark plugs in there current burn state. I pulled each plug from front to back and looked them over. They are almost brand new but they were black with carbon. Every one and the rear most plug was slightly worse. They were Not light tan like you would want to see. Next, I read the plugs after extended idling and they looked much better although I think I could go slightly leaner on the idle mixture screw too.
The high speed test seems to show I’m running Rich. This would make sense why this boat has never gone above 30 MPH in the 40 plus years we have owned it. At least it’s a possibility.
Does anyone know if there is a rule of thumb for jetting solex carbs. I saw only one post on a different forum with someone saying, go one jet size down per 1000 feet. Is this right? Does anyone know what main jet I should have? I’m at 4000 feet so 3-4 sizes Down from stock?
I did not make note of the main jet size stamp when I rebuilt the carbs last year. I’ll have to check that out.
Can anyone shed light on this subject?
-
Not much info ...
http://www.volvopentastore.com/Carburetor/dm/cart_id.710988394--session_id.430340872--store_id.366--view_id.771668
Maybe find a Volvo motor forum on some site like "Iboat"
I have no clue what our elevation is .. 4000 feet sound high ..
-
I may have written the Carb model incorrectly. They are dual 44PA1 carbs. I looked up some jets and I think The stock main jet is #155. I’ll check my main jet size tomorrow. Would I go down to a 150
If you go down one jet size per 1000 feet (Sea Level =0) would that be a jet size #151. 155-4=151. 150 would be the closest jet size to that but am I doing that right?
-
I have no idea .. but lean it down sounds right .. Maybe ?
Can you even get different jets ?
-
Maybe try a Volvo Penta dealer in Colorado or Montana for high altitude jetting info ?
-
I would think someone else running that drivetrain might be able to report their jetting. Definitely a rich condition, but might be caused by something else, fuel level in bowl too high is one. Choke malfunction? Air correction off? Dirty air filter? 4000' elevation will have an effect if jetted at sea level. Bouncing around in a boat can affect fuel control as well.
-
Plugcheck: all good thoughts and I e tried to check each one of those off the list. These Solex 44PA1 carbs don’t have allot of those features. No air correctors, no chokes, no air filters (only Metal Spark Arrestors) I adjusted the floats last year I think the floats are good to go.
Update: My Dual Solex 44PA1 On the AQ130 have 145 Main Jets installed. I just checked tonight. Does anyone know what size main jets came stock in the AQ130 package? I thought I read somewhere it was 155 main jets.
Can anyone confirm?
-
It seems like you should be going faster for the RPMs you're getting. Have you tried adjusting the tilt pin for more trim? The Volvo doesn't have power trim but I believe it does have a tilt pin that can be placed through one of multiple holes to adjust trim angle.
-
I was able to order a set of original Solex 142.5 Main jets off eBay. I will be giving those a try to see if I can get the spark plugs that perfect tan color at high speed.
As I was looking and reading I found that most Solex jets are the same and that they are almost the same as Weber Keihin, Mikuni and a few other common carbs. At least they have the same thread pitch. It got me thinking. I had a Weber carb jet kit for my Jeep J-10. I put a Weber 38 on that truck and had some left over jets. 140’s, 150’s, 155’s and a set of 160 main jets in the kit. I did some experimenting swapping them into the Solex 44PA1 for testing.
Remember I am at 4000 feet elevation:
140 slowed the boat from 4200 RPM to 3950 RPM
150 Was at 4150 RPM
155 Was at 4000 RPM
I decided the 142.5 jets, when they arrive will be worth trying out because they would only be slightly leaner than the stock 145’s and that is exactly what I need. It may not help much but I’m going to try.
eBay has a bunch of off brand Solex jets that should work if you want to experiment. I measured the jets at 9mm length, 8mm head width, and a Metric 5mm x .75mm thread pitch.
Another thing tested, I had moved the trim bolt on the 270 outdrive to the third rear most hole for trim. There are only 3 holes for trim adjustment. The 4th hole is for the motor bracket that holds the motor in the locked up position for trailering, I guess. The 4th hole is smaller in diameter and will not accept the larger trim bolt. I was surprised there is not more trim adjustment on this 270.
I lost 1 MPH from 29 to 28 but that was because I had a full gas tank of gas Today. The RPMs remain the same at 4200.
Dwell angle was tested and it is at a perfect 63 degrees. Another thing off the list.
I purchased the Pertronix 2842 Electronic Ignition and the Flame-Thrower 40511 Flame Thrower Coil Package in Amazon. I will update on what that gets me in an increase in RPM.
I’m still not satisfied with the turn out. 4200 and 29 MPH on 1/4 tank is not what this boat should do. It’s not right. It should be faster.
Things on the list to do:
Clean the bottom of the boat
Weigh the boat
New high speed Aluminum Volvo Prop (One of the only props available for the 270 short shaft)
Anyone got ideas on what’s going on here?
-
Sounds like you have checked just about everything. Compression at cranking speed is acceptable. I would consider looking up the cam specs and running some tests to see if the lift and duration is correct. Would also insure the timing marks are correct as well as knowing if the cam was installed advanced or retarded. Just a thought since it has always performed this way.
-
Plug: what should the compression be on a new AQ130. I was happy with the 148 or so PSI at this altitude. I understand this engine has slightly higher compression just due to the fact it requires 97RON gas (91 Octane U.S) Any idea what that compression figure might be?
I’m not familiar with looking up a cam spec and being able to figure out what the lift might be can you help me with that. Also if the cam was installed advanced or retarded. What does that mean and How is that tested. I would like to rule these out too.
I’ll look into the timing marks. That would be interesting. Also should add to the list the 270 outdrive ratio. It is supposed to be 2.15:1 I’ll check that too.
-
Another option for the RPM drain I thought of is the alternator. My voltmeter reads high because the alternator is charging a large marine battery. I thought of this after this test. I ran at full throttle and got my usual 4200 RPM. Shut the boat down in the middle of the lake. It was dusk, so I turned on the NAV lights front and back. I ended up sitting there for about 1 hour. I then started the boat and ran full speed agin. I only got 4000 or so RPM. Nothing changed except the use of the lights. I then ran full throttle and turned the lights off. I got an increase of RPM to about 4150. Interesting! The alternator was creating a huge drag it seemed charging the battery back up from the light drain after sitting. It got me thinking about the battery. I will also test the Alternator.
What Battery size and type should I have in this 1972 Glastron AQ130 Bayflite? I hope someone can help me with that. I would like to purchase one today at NAPA to check that off the list.
-
Update: Moving in the right direction!
Tested the alternator and it’s throwing good amperage. 14.20 amps at full throttle. Check that off the list. I purchased a new battery (NAPA 8270) BCI# 27 DCM. It’s 800 CCA @ 32* Check that off too. I did discover that my Voltmeter/Ammeter is not working correctly. It is showing 16. I will investigate that.
I decided to check the valve clearance. So I read the manual and adjusted per the book. Things were ok and seemed to pass inspection. I didn’t like the method spelled out in the manual. Find cylinder 1 TDC adjust valve 1, 2, 3, and 5 (counted front to back) then rotate crank one revolution and adjust 4, 6, 7, and 8. I did that and it looked good. I had never done this quicker method before and didn’t trust it. I had in the back of my mind that spark plugs 2 and 3 never looked quite the same as 1 and 4. Plugs 2 and 3 were not as perfect a burn Pattern and had lots more carbon. Always. I decided to check each cylinder individually as it hit compression at top dead. I found using this longer adjustment method that the valves on cylinderS 2 and 3 were far tighter than they should be. I adjusted each valve so .020 feeler gauge just slips in and .022 will not fit.
Test results:
Prop 14 x 19
RPM slightly above 4400 that’s a 200 RPM increase
Speed 30 MPH
Elevation 4000 feet
Much smother running and far more power felt. We’re moving in the right direction here. Well worth checking this on your boats. I hate to even utter these words but in this case “don’t follow the manual” check each cylinder individually. That Manual method may work somewhere or be a quick get it done shop trick but it didn’t work here.
Side notes I noticed testing: These tests were with me in the boat (6’4” 250 pounds) I added my dad, later in testing, who is also 6’5 260 pounds and we noticed a slight drop in RPM and Speed. To be expected but interesting. 4300 or so RPM and 29 MPH. I made note that adding about 250 pounds to the boat will cut RPM by about 100 and Speed by 1 MPH.
Boat still has dirty bottom and that will be tested at some point later.
-
Have you ever tried it at a lower elevation ?
I have a CV16 / 115 HP Mariner outboard .. With full tank (18 gal.) and a 200 lbs. passenger, I lose 3 to 4 MPH/GPS.
Adding 250 lbs. and losing 1 MPH would be expected ...
-
Having a dial indicator handy whilst adjusting the valves would have confirmed valve lift. 0.020-0.022 inches seemed like a lot, but I looked up the specs and it is indeed that value. Using a piston stop and turning the crank back and forth would verify the timing marks are correct. Degreeing the cam with engine installed might be difficult, but just checking the lift at the valve might be enough to determine if the cam went flat. Compression ratio varied on these engines, the "C" version had 9.5 to 1 which should have a compression test reading above 180psi, the "B" had something like 8.5 to 1, so comp test should read about 140-150. Sounds like you're making progress.
-
Update: I had purchased the Pertronix 2842 Electronic Ignition and the Flame-Thrower 40511 Flame Thrower Coil Package on Amazon. I followed the instructions and installed the Pertronix 2842 Electronic Ignition first. Only trouble with that install was not pushing the new plastic magnetic cam piece on far enough down into the original distributor cam. I realized it was not installed far enough down when the distributor rotor would not fit under the cap. I pushed it down further and everything fit nicely. That should be spelled out in the instructions better, I think. There are 4 small magnetic pieces in that plastic cam and they align with the flat portions of the distributor cam. Once aligned the plastic piece can be pushed down until it bottoms on the built in lip. It takes some force. Not a turn and push like they describe.
Out of curiosity, I measured my original Bosch Coil and it was safe for use with the Pertronix as the original coil ohm reading was 3.0 on Primary (+ to - Coil Terminals) and the Secondary read 8 (Coil Tower to negative coil terminal) 3 ohm being the important reading for this install. I decided to test the boat with just the Pertronix installed to see what each component would gain me.
Note: I did receive a bad Flame Thrower Coil. The Primary winding of the coil was open and had 0 ohm reading. I found this out after I tried to install it. I will have to send it back. I’m not sure if the Flame Thrower Coil is better than the Original Bosch. Bosch made good stuff. As of right now I’m not impressed with the Flame Thrower Quality.
Can someone tell me why the Flame Thrower Coil is better than the original Bosch? You end up using the same spark plugs and plug gap with either coil.
So with the new Pertronix Ignition installed and the engine retimed, (that’s a must) here are the results.
Prop: 14 x 19
RPM: 4600 + a little
Speed: 32 MPH
Elevation: 4000 feet
We are again moving in the right direction!
The boat starts instantly and I gained 200 RPM on the top speed. Interesting because the dwell and points were checked previously and the parts were fairly new. That’s a great boost for the money. It seems smoother and more responsive.
Other things on the list to gain RPM and Speed:
New Prop
Clean Boat bottom
New Original Volvo Plug Wires Ordered
Carb Sync (purchased a UNI Sync carb tool) waiting for it to arrive.
One big annoyance is the idle. There must be a slight bind In the carb linkage because even though the boat idles smooth and is perfectly set at 900 RPM after you increase the throttle, the idle will hang at 1500 + until you rev it and then it will come down. Very annoying! I have read that there might have been a spring that was installed between the throttle cable sleeve end and the throttle linkage. Did my boat have this? When the idle has hung up I have opened the engine bay and pushed the throttle linkage up with my finger. It take a very light touch and the idle comes right down. I think even a light spring here would take care of everything?
Am I missing this throttle cable spring? If so what size spring and or what is the part number?
-
Don't waste your time with the flame thrower coil. I have tried 2 and not had good results. 1 bad out of the box and one lasting 30 minutes. Stick with the factor coil.
And congratulations on the increase in performance! I am thinking about going back to a pertronix when I revive my boat from a 4 year slumber next spring.
-
Update: I was battling a problem returning to idle. Any time I gave the boat throttle and returned it to idle the ROM would stay at about 1500 - 2000. I would have to rev the throttle briskly and then the idle would come back down to about 900 RPM. This was a real pain in the ass because anytime you brought the throttle lever to neutral you would have to rev the engine in order to get it back into gear without a huge slap and clunk with the high RPMs. I put a 1/4 x 7.5 inch long spring and washer setup (Bottom washer 1/4 hole size and Top washer 3/16 hole) on the throttle cable end near the carburetor to give the throttle lever a little extra boost shutting the throttle plates completely. It worked. It has been returning back to correct idle or very close every time now.
I made a few RPM gains after a few new parts arrived. I replaced the spark plug wires with original Volvo wires. The RPM gain was modest but anything helps. I got a 25 to 50 RPM increase with the new wires.
I also got my new Solex main jets in the mail from France. I had tested my original 145 main jets and read the plugs at high speed, full throttle. I shut down the engine while going full speed in order to freeze the plugs in there burn state. They were slightly black and not the perfect tan color you want from a good burn ratio. I decided because they were black that I was running slightly rich. Previous jet testing said that 140 main jets were too lean. I lost RPM with jets that small. I decided to give the 142’s a try. Right in the middle. This was an improvement! After testing, I got a 100 RPM gain.
New Test results
Prop: 14x19
RPM: 4725 or so
Speed: 32 MPH
Elevation 4000 feet
Main jet now 142 (original was 145)
I will be syncing the carbs tomorrow and hope I get a slight increase in RPM with that. I will keep everyone updated.
Things to still try:
Clean bottom of boat
New Prop
It does not look like I will hit the book numbers of 35-37 MPH but I may be able to hit 4800 RPM and that’s better then when I started this journey at 3850 or so RPM almost 1000 RPM increase from almost everything I replaced and adjusted. Very small increases that all added up. Very interesting how finicky boats are and how truly high performance they really are. Everything counts on the water to gain speed.
-
Make sure that the throttle linkage( cable) attacking to the carbs is not tight.