Minnesota Classic Glastron Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: wexrocks on June 11, 2011, 06:22:28 PM
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well, I've done it again. just couldn't resist it. it was about 1 1/2 hours away, and the deal of the week, for sure. I've been watching for one of these and missed a few, so I figured I better just get it. turned out to be in pretty good shape, interior needs a little attention, but will likely just redo it at some point, exterior is real nice and should clean up and buff out very nicely. outdrive was recently rebuilt, and it has alot of new items (starter, alternator, water pump, coil, distributor, and so on). only issue is what the owner described as a rod knock (or something). said he stopped running it so that he would still have a good core to rebuild. it's a 270hp Magnum, and I won't know till I get it apart if it can be refreshed, or needs to be totally redone. also came with a nice roller trailer, but unfortunately I had a bearing fail on me coming home. I was getting close to home, and was near a friends house, so it's staying there until I get the bearing fixed.
all in all, a very nice project with alot of potential. of course, Shrom really lucked out here because I just sold him a nice 350 just a few days ago that would have dropped right in here! lucky dog, Shrom... lucky dog. ;)
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WOW !
You got a Beauty there Steve .. just for a little pocket change I'd built this roller vortec for you to put in that one .. those things were a 60+ mph boat off the showroom floor ya know.
I have one of those coming in for a fall project, I'm anxious to get that baby in the shop.
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Good score Steve !
Deep V should ride pretty good at 60 mph.
Cuddys come in handy with the ladys ... port a potties.
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Looks like a great find Steve, congrats! ;)
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well, we'll see if there's enough room for the porti-potti. looks a little tight in there, but I'd like to have one, so I'll see if I can make it work.
Looking forward to getting this motor apart to see what I've got, and what it will take to get it rolling again. honestly, if I get this motor straightened out, it should be water worthy, so I may get to enjoy this one this year. I love simple projects! the rest is simple cosmetics. the CVZ-19 has been treating me well, but considering how many Carlsons I have in the back yard, it would be nice to have another one that I can run if I want to. OleRed has offered to put together a good runner if I need it, and I certainly trust his work, so if this is more than a refresh on this motor, I may be importing an "OKC" motor and gettin' out on the water. I'm hoping for somethin simple, but we'll see.
just glad to have one of these in the collection. long before I started collecting Glastron/Carlson boats, I saw a CSS-19 advertised, and thought it was the coolest thing. I've been watching for them since, and considering the deal I got on this one, I couldn't be happier to have it, no matter how long it takes to get it out on the river! ;D
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Sweet! Another project but small(er). Now is this going to take you away from the Scimitar? You are getting quite the "collectable" collection!
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Rosscoe, this shouldn't distract me too much from the Scimitar. I'll have the motor out this week and look it over, and when I get that straightened out, I'll get it back together and go run it... shouldn't be too involved. the Scimitar is a much bigger undertaking, but I am still hoping to have time soon to split the hull and get a new structure in that one, so I can start puting it back together.
went over to my buddy's house today (where the CSS is currently sitting) and took the hub off the trailer. the bearings came out in small pieces, and the axle is a bit chewed up. getting new bearings tomorrow so I can bring it home tomorrow night. its just gonna trash the bearings again, but it'll get it home. I'll get a new axle when I know the boat is ready. my neighbor has the overhead crane that I've been using for all these engine pulls (easier than using my forklift) so I'll talk to him and see when it will work to pull it, then I'll rip it down and see what I got. with any luck, I am hoping to be puting this motor back together soon, but it will all depend on what's actually wrong with it, and if it needs any machine work, and how long that will take... I am gonna get thru this project quick regardless of what it needs. just don't want another one sitting that doesn't run, and I am really anxious to run a CSS.
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lol I better keep an eye on my engine...haha j/k Steve. I am very appreciative of you selling me that 350. I have yet to get it on the water but running it on muffs. Its seems strong... ok enough I don't want to rub it in. I do feel lucky. You have helped me with selling me the engine, plus spending a evening with me tearing it down. If your engine doesn't need any machine work. We can have it done in no time. Put a new oil pump in for good measure. I will be gone the next couple weeks but if you don't have it done before then I am more then happy to give you a hand.
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thanks Shrom... I'm gonna try to get it out this week or this weekend, and tear it down to see what I have. I'll let ya know what I find. did you run a batch of oil thru that motor and change it like I told you??? don't you waste that good motor! ;D
anyway, got the trailer straightened out (needs an axle, but it's home now) and finished the trip home. so now it's here, gonna look it over tomorrow and see how far the previous owner got with prepping it to pull the motor, do whatever else needs done, and hopefully I can get it under my neighbors jib crane this week. it's usually a five minute job because I prep for it, and five hours talking about it (which requires a few beers). it's just easier than using my forklift, and allows more control, which is especially important with that radar arch in the way!
wish me luck, I'm hoping the "tap" is a collapsed lifter, or something simple... we'll see...
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thanks Shrom... I'm gonna try to get it out this week or this weekend, and tear it down to see what I have. I'll let ya know what I find. did you run a batch of oil thru that motor and change it like I told you??? don't you waste that good motor! ;D
lol cool, keep me posted. And yes. I put cheap oil in it and ran the oil pump with a hand drill for a while. I let that oil drain back into the pan. about half hour later ran the pump again. Then I drained that oil out. ( which still looked brand new!) changed the oil filter. and put new oil back in. This one has great oil pressure! and vary well lubricated. We let the valve covers off and adjust the valves once more while it was running. I could see the oil being pumped up through the rods. What a great sight! ;D
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pulled the motor tonight. junk. cracked block. kinda what I expected...
so, I am currently talking to an engine building company in Maine. reputable shop with good reviews, and great deals. so far the deal is that they will ship me a reman Magnum motor short block (steel crank, H beam rods, Hypereutectic pistons, good bearings, etc.) minus cam and timing chain/gears. I will use my heads (once I check them over), have a custom grind cam done from Olered's guru, gear drive, and reinstall the factory Holley intake, and whatever carb/jetting the cam guy recommends, and dial in from there. while the motor is being put together, I'll wetsand and buff it out, touch up the interior, and get it ready to put back together.
all in all, should be a 2-3 week project, and shooting for the 300-310hp mark with the custom cam. considering that most claim a potential 65mph stock (270hp) with the right prop, I am hoping to push the 70 mark, but running good and 65+ is where I want to be.
plan is to wrap this project up quick, enjoy it, and back to focus on the Scimitar... wish me luck!
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update...
today I brought home a fresh 383 stroker for the CSS! it has an Eagle crank, full roller valve train, World Products Sportsman II heads, 1.6 roller rockers, MSD distributor, high torque mini starter, etc. it's fresh, and about half what I would have paid for a stock reman motor, with ALOT more power, so I figured this was the way to go...
gotta swap accessories, etc. over and install brass freeze plugs, hoping to drop it in next week some time, possibly fire it within two weeks. it has a mild cam now, and I'm going to leave it alone and just get it running and on the water. I may do a custom grind cam over the winter and thru-hull exhaust and really open up the potential of this motor, but I just wanna get some "fun" time in this season with it. I did a little buffing on the boat the other day, and it looks like this thing is gonna clean up REAL nice! hoping it all works out that simple, we'll see...
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How about we drop it in my boat...to make sure it runs ;)
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Ha,ha... good one Shrom! ;D Ya know, I was thinking I messed up selling you that 350, considering I found this boat 3 days later, and needed a motor! ::) but like I was saying to you the other night, I think it all worked out for everybody, cause you got a good powerplant and a pretty big step up in horsepower, and if I had kept yours, I wouldn't have been looking, and wouldn't have found this good deal, and it's gonna take a few more ponies to get this CSS moving than your CVX,so... yeah, looks like it all worked out.
I am hoping the cracked block is the extent of the issues with the motor, as I would like to keep the forged crank, rods, heads, etc. out of the Magnum motor as parts to begin puting a motor together for the Intimidator, but we'll see.
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well, as these stories often go, this project is not moving as quickly as I had hoped. when I started getting the 383 ready to drop in, I found a few things I didn't like. first, since I had to change out the single plane high rise intake for the Holley dual plane that I was going to use, I pulled up the intake and found a pushrod laying in the lifter valley. odd thing was, the motor wasn't missing any. this got me thinking that perhaps the guy who built this motor may have been a bit careless, or worse. I was looking things over while I had the valve covers off, and down at the bottom edge where small pools of oil often lay, I stuck my finger in the oil to see what it felt like. there were small pockets of sludge, and in bright light, it was shiny gray sludge. so much for my "fresh" 383. so I tore it down completely. bearings didn't look too good, and afterpulling the pistons, I realized that they used stock 350 pistons for this 383, they shaved the tops of the pistons down for deck clearance, and apparently didn't clearance the skirts properly, so the crank caught a skirt and snapped off a chunk, which got turned into millions of engine destroying particles. so... I kept the World Product heads and the block, and junked the rest. the block went to the machine shop (great local guy, and has done alot of good work for friends of mine over the years). it has now been dipped and cleaned a few times (he's thorough!), bored, and cleaned again. it's getting a new Eagle crank, new rods, pistons, and so on. not taking any chances! once all the parts get here, it will be assembled to check for clearance, and will finally start to go back together. really wanna run this boat this year... wish me luck!
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Bummer Wex! But...at least it gets done right this time around.
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YEP ...
Now ya know it's done right !
Peice of mind is priceless ...
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That bites! Did you contact the seller of that "fresh" stroker by any chance?
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That bites! Did you contact the seller of that "fresh" stroker by any chance?
well, I considered that... and my first thought was to take it back in pieces and demand my money back, but, I have a feeling that situation would have gone badly, and I'd be locked up right now, because my temper still manages to get the best of me once in a while. Honestly, by looking it over and having talked to him when I got it, I think he truly got ripped off by whoever built the motor, and didn't even realize it. If I hadn't torn down the motor, I probably wouldn't have known anything was wrong until it flew apart, so I really think he didn't know. and, I still got way more out of it in parts than what I paid, so it's not a loss at least. And, it has inspired me to build this brand new roller 383, which I'm pretty excited about. I will say this, after my last few engine experiences, I will not buy another one without completely stripping it down in front of the seller!
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Awesome attitude on the deal Wex, we're proud of you! (Just soo glad it didn't hand grenade on you!) Take sour grapes and make some wine, LOL.
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I just couldn't keep my mouth shut on this one. I'd have to call and be professional about it and just let him know what was found and that you're having to spend x-number of $$ to get it fixed. Be professional about it. Nothing worse than buying something on somebody's word to find out that you have to invest a bunch more into it than expected.
At least now you will know that it's done correctly. Peace of mind it great and beats paddling any day.
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I still got way more out of it in parts than what I paid, so it's not a loss at least. And, it has inspired me to build this brand new roller 383, which I'm pretty excited about. I will say this, after my last few engine experiences, I will not buy another one without completely stripping it down in front of the seller!
So sorry you have to go to that length to get what you expected Steve, but, like I told you, I paid a Lot more than that for the parts to build mine, and let me tell ya this, you got over Twice your cost in parts for your money, and this too, I have spent over $500 in the last two days in spark plugs, gaskets, lifters, push rods, stud girdle's, oil, filter, just a few more "nic' nac's". I got all the valve train accompoished today, Barb came over and done the hard work, I just kinda got to do the easy stuff, she rotated the motor, torqued the head bolts, aligned the guide plates, rockers, torque'd the screw in 7/16 rocker arm studs, I think she felt sorry for me operating with one hand, she's a nice girl ... So I'm told.
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Olered,
sounds like you've got quite a good assistant there! Never seems to be enough time in the day, and I've got PLENTY of projects, so you tell Barb if she's lookin for somethin to do, she can jump on 95 North and head for PA, I'll keep her busy! ;D
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Just a quick update... The block is completely done, finish honed, cleaned again, etc., and assembly/clearance check of the bottom end has begun. Cam is on it's way, decided on a new Edelbrock carb, and soon will be ordering a set of EMI Thunder aluminum manifolds. Taking the rest of the engine pieces to the shop tomorrow, and this motor will be together by the end of the week. Talked to my neighbor about getting it under his crane to drop the motor in, and it looks like that will be happening next week. After talking to the cam shop, the machine shop, and everything I've read online, this motor should end up being in the 410-425hp range. That oughta get the job done... ;D
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" 410-425hp range "
Let the horse power wars begin ...
LOL ...
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" 410-425hp range "
Let the horse power wars begin ...
LOL ...
good one Gregg ;D I started out in this project with the intentions of rebuilding the stock Magnum motor, maybe going a little more cam for a few extra ponies, and dropping it back in. well, the cracked block scrapped that idea, the "good deal" on the first 383 got me thinkin "what's a little more power, since it's available and cheap", then in the process of rebuilding this 383, it dawned on me that it was gonna cost pretty much the same to go mild or wild, since I already had some pretty good performance parts from the 383, it was really gonna come down to a different cam making all (or most) of the difference, so... that was all the justification I needed to go nuts! ;D watching a few videos on youtube of a CSS-19 blowing by at 75-80 didn't help much either! so yeah, I decided not to wait for the Scimitar to be finished to have a hotrod. after a few expensive tankfulls of gas (and especially if I start breaking parts!) I may decide stock was the way to go, but it should be fun!
I had considered getting some Dyno time on it before puting it in the boat, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that with the advice I've gotten, I'm confident that the setup will be pretty much "on" when it goes in, and it'll just take a little fine tuning from there, plus the fact that dyno tuned may not always be tuned to the water, hull, etc., and I also figured knowing exactly how many HP it is won't make it go any faster! ;)
and Gregg, I know you were just kidding about the horsepower wars, but if there were any truth to it being some sort of a competition, then the "big dogs" of horsepower around here better quit spendin' so much time tellin' me how to make it faster! (now look what ya did Olered, ya made the "horsepower wars" guys mad!) ;D
anyway, I've combined all this good advice in the hopes of a solid, dependable runner, so wish me luck, it's all nuts and bolts from here...
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Oldred is a bad influence on use all ! .... LOL
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Got a few toys headin this way in the mail to help finish this motor off, and after watching Olereds video of his 383 running, I'm getting excited about getting it done, his sounds awesome! There are alot of similarities between the two, and a few differences that are a little more here, little less there, that pretty much balance out. Would be interesting to dyno the two and see where each falls throughout the rpm range. Anyway, I think I may have a name for the CSS... "Equinsu Ocha". Anyone know (or care) where it comes from? It's an example of my somewhat juvenile sense of humor. ;D
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Ace Ventura 2...hahaha
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Looks like a great project! I wish I had your knowledge and know-how on the motors!
I also love those CSS models. I've been watching them come and go for sale for years. Always drooling over them. Haven't ever been able to convince myself that the 19' would give me enough additional space over the 16' CVX I've already got. And I don't have the coin to spring for the twin 454, 28 footer. Although, I consider that 28CSS on my list of dream boats to own someday!
Looking forward to seeing your finished project!! Thx for sharing!
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Anything new with the stroker?
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cvx16,
I certainly have my hands full with other projects, but I have been watching for one of these for a few years now, missed a few and turned down a few, waiting for the right deal. This one came up cheap about two hours from home needing a motor, so I figured this was it, and since the rest of the boat needs very little, I put the others on hold to finish this one. It has a little more room to move around, not alot more, and a small cuddy, but I would think the bigger difference would be the weight and hull design. Made for a little rougher water, and while it does take alot more power to move it, it's a bit more stable at higher speeds. I wanted something stable yet light as a platform for a hot rod, plus I like the style, so I decided to go with it. The Scimitar I am building will have more power, so when it's done, I'm not sure that there will be a good reason to hang on to this one permanently, but that will depend on how attached I get to it!
Shrom,
the bottom end is done, the heads are done, and everything is here other than the carb, which is on it's way. Should go together next week, and in the boat. Gonna fire it in the boat, and if all goes well, start putng the rest back together, get the drive on, and all that. Still deciding on exhaust, found a good deal on new EMI Thunder aluminum manifolds, but also found an even better deal on almost new cast GIL Offshore's... So, got a decision to make...
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Hey Steve .. I'm wondering about these manifolds myself, hold off on your decision for a bit, or give me a call, could be an issue
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Went for a road trip today and picked up the new exhaust. I was concerned that with this much cam, reversion may be an issue, if I went with a standard style riser. I ended up going with a beautiful set of Gil Offshore aluminum manifolds, with 4" chrome tails. The advantage to these is a nice smooth mandrel bent curve, instead of the sharp elbow of a standard riser, it's about a 14" long pipe, and the cooling water doesn't mix with the exhaust until the end of the pipe, eliminating the chance for reversion. Plus, I tend to prefer the sound of 4" over 3", but that's just me. Got them for what I consider to be a steal, along with a few extras, so I'm real happy with them! The machine shop says they want to fire it up this weekend on a stand... if that happens, and all goes well, should be lowering it into the CSS next week! I'm getting excited, it's getting close...
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that sounds good Steve ... thos manifolds are working with big cams in big blocks for sure, you should be safe. I didn't get the heads back today, Maybe tomorrow, we'll see, but I have done a little grinding, polishing on the EMI thunders I have, to help direct the water to the bottom of the exhaust cone, that could have been part of the problem, they didn't clean that up very well, like None.
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Going today to the machine shop to fire up the 383 stroker, and bring it home. It's finally done! :-) I'll video it, and get some pics, so that I can share. Wish me luck!
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Good luck Wex !
Luck has been in short supply this year ...
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Git-er -done Steve, I'm anxious to see that baby busted off myself
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What exactly is a "stroker" anyway?
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I beleive its a bored out 350 small block with a 400 crank? Longer stroke, hence, "stroker". Plus all kinds of other goodies that are not necessary to a stroker...I think. I'll let Red and Wex correct me if I am wrong.
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Plus all kinds of other goodies that are not necessary to a stroker...
???
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actually, they do call it a stroker because the bigger crankshaft gives it a longer stroke, more cubic inches, making it 383 cubic inches from a 350 block. Chevy made a small block 400 cid motor for a couple years in the 70's, the 400 had what some call a siamese cylinder design, meaning it didn't have water passages between the cylinders, just a couple little "steam hole" which resulted in a lot of them overheating under a continous load, the crankshaft in those motors have a larger main journel, bigger diameter, 1/4 longer rod throws, and weighed a bit more than a 350 crank. So .. there is a lot of other sruff that must be done to make it work, the chankshaft must be turned down to the size of the 350 journels, and some of the counter weights can be cut down, maiing it a little lighter, but still, the 350 block must be ground out some for the 400 crankshaft to fit, so it will rotate with-out hitting the bottom of the cylinders, the side's of the case, and the cam must be ground differently so the rod bolts don't hit it. Because there is 383 cubic inches, if you are going to get the performance it's built for, it needs more carb than the 350, like from a 600cfm carb, to a 650 cfm, and because it's got to breath freely, it needs bigger valves, and a free flowing exhaust system, and an ignition systen capable of burning more gas. The main purpose I'm build the stroker is because it has over 100 more pounds of torque, thats what I need for my boat, the one I'm building should have at least 500 pounds of torque, thats what puts the boats up on plane faster, the 350 has 350 /370 pounds of torque.
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Plus all kinds of other goodies that are not necessary to a stroker...
???
What I meant was that you and wex are doing other things like the aluminum goodies (flywheels, exhaust) etc) that can be done to anything and are not necessarily "stroker" stuff. Its the bottom end and bore that really make it a stroker, correct?
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Plus all kinds of other goodies that are not necessary to a stroker...
???
What I meant was that you and wex are doing other things like the aluminum goodies (flywheels, exhaust) etc) that can be done to anything and are not necessarily "stroker" stuff. Its the bottom end and bore that really make it a stroker, correct?
correct! and Red is spot on, as always. the nice thing is that now, they make aftermarket cranks, pistons, rods and cams that are designed to build a 383, so it takes alot less machining than it used to, and it's easier to build a balanced bottom end.
but as far as "necessary" stuff... that depends on who you ask! ;) either OleRed or I will tell ya that aftermarket heads, cams, intakes, carbs, and the like are ABSOLUTELY necessary! but, we're a couple of power-hungry good 'ol boys who love buying gas, and watching passengers look around for somethin' to hold on to! ;D
pics coming tomorrow... I'm gettin' excited... REAL excited!
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that Kinda right Ross, but, the motors Steve and I are using to build the stroker is a little different that the original stroker design, we are using the later model 5.7 blocks, roller cams, and vortec style heads, kinda, and the crank shafts have a one piece rear main seal, these motors are externally balanced, as was the old style 400's were, but flywheels are different, they are weighted, and the harmonic balancer, but different weights than the 400's were, the rotating assy has to be balanced with the new style flywheels, and of course, lighter is better. The crank shaft we are using is not really an old style 400 crank, these are made for the stroker motors, they were never really installed in a 400 cid motor.
As far needing the other stuff ... when it cost as much as it does to build one of these baby's ... it's Got to look good, and like I said, Lighter is better in a boat. I have taken about 200 pounds of weight off this motor by using aluminum, amd the 25 pound flywheel, the original flywheel weighed 47 pounds, even the 4.3 flywheel weighs 34 pounds, but it works just fine on a stroker, just less weight.
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get excited Steve ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TjheKZQ-CU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TjheKZQ-CU)
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Chevy made a small block 400 cid motor for a couple years in the 70's, the 400 had what some call a siamese cylinder design, meaning it didn't have water passages between the cylinders, just a couple little "steam hole" which resulted in a lot of them overheating under a continous load,
I guess that's what my camper-conversion van has, or were there more than one version of 400 in the '70s? My cousin said something about thin cylinder walls. If I ever have to pull the motor, I might consider dropping to a 350. The only problems I've had so far though are failed cruise control, wire came off the alternator, A/C compressor siezed up, battery ground wire corroded (aluminum, not copper) inside the insulation, a flat tire and a scary spare, and I had to replace the camper vent lid twice from weathering. ;) No problems with the motor itself.
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Chevy made two styles of the 400 cid motors, they made one in the biig block, like the 454's, and the small blok that looked just like a 350. the small block chevy has been built since 1955, with very little change's until the late 80's, a 283 cid, then the 327. 307, a 265, a 302, the 350,and 400's
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Chevy made a small block 400 cid motor for a couple years in the 70's, the 400 had what some call a siamese cylinder design, meaning it didn't have water passages between the cylinders, just a couple little "steam hole" which resulted in a lot of them overheating under a continous load,
I guess that's what my camper-conversion van has, or were there more than one version of 400 in the '70s? My cousin said something about thin cylinder walls. If I ever have to pull the motor, I might consider dropping to a 350. The only problems I've had so far though are failed cruise control, wire came off the alternator, A/C compressor siezed up, battery ground wire corroded (aluminum, not copper) inside the insulation, a flat tire and a scary spare, and I had to replace the camper vent lid twice from weathering. ;) No problems with the motor itself.
the 400 was a good motor for certain applications, and alot of motorhomes of that day came with them, for good reason. they made ALOT of torque, which is exactly what you want in a big vehicle. in a motorhome, you're not gonna hit high rpm (causing a major cooling issue), but on a hill, the 400 really shines, even with a 2 barrel carb and all stock. and the Impalas that came with them were tire-smoking yachts, and ran with some of the "muscle" cars of the era, even stock. but, in a performance application, cooling does become an issue, and the piston technology was not what it is today, and with that long stroke, there is alot of travel and friction along the cylinder walls, creating a problem. if you go with a 350, you will gain reliability, but you will lose some of that pull on the hills, and you will see it struggle where the 400 didn't. all depends on what you are looking for. to be honest, cost aside, I couldn't imagine a better motor for a motorhome than a mild 383.
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get excited Steve ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TjheKZQ-CU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TjheKZQ-CU)
OleRed, if I had a dollar for every time I wached this video... well, I could buy a six-pack and sit and watch it some more! ;D but yeah, that video inspires me, for sure. can not wait to hear this thing run! and to see what it does in this CSS... :o
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Hey Steve, I may push mine out and run it again tomorrow, with the 4" elbows rather than the long pipes, if I do I'll shoot a video of it. It's still wanting to put those long 4" pipes on it, thru the transom, but there are more and more lakes, patrols, sending the loud boats back to the dock, I been thinking about running mine back through the "y" pipe, and just using the diverters, if there is enough room ??
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Hey Steve, I may push mine out and run it again tomorrow, with the 4" elbows rather than the long pipes, if I do I'll shoot a video of it. It's still wanting to put those long 4" pipes on it, thru the transom, but there are more and more lakes, patrols, sending the loud boats back to the dock, I been thinking about running mine back through the "y" pipe, and just using the diverters, if there is enough room ??
honestly, I don't know if there's enough room... until I get the Scimitar together I wouldn't know, but your X dimension is raised and set back, so it would take some serious geometry for me to figure that out! ;) my gut feeling is f*#k 'em, but obviously that doesn't work in the real world. I know that the Y-pipes and thru prop don't create ALOT of restriction, but it may be enough to foul plugs, load it up, I'm not sure. with a "captain's choice" setup, I guess you could switch over and clean it out if need be (like idling for a while, or no wake zones) but will they bust you the first time you open it up? no idea. I'm lucky where I am, while there are laws about thru-hull exhaust, it's never enforced because there are big-block off-shore boats running up and down my part of the river all the time, so I kinda set my standard by them. a few minutes with a video camera would make a strong case for me for selective enforcement if they ever messed with me, but, that doesn't work for everybody, and different areas are more strict, for sure. I just hope I can bring this CSS to the meet next year without any legal issues... I know Barb doesn't want to see it show up (it's a little Intimidating... hehehe ;) private joke) but I want to be able to run it, especially after travelling all that way... does anyone know? do they have restrictions there? is it based on exhaust configuration? decible level?
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There was a joke around camp that Bob (CV21 007) would get two loud exhaust tickets, one for each motor ...
He had to pass a least two DNR, CG, etc. on his way down river Sat.
Bob could get a loud exhaust ticket at a drag strip !
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"He had to pass a least two DNR, CG, etc. on his way down river Sat."
I did not know this. Apparently he passed! Good deal.
Its really quite unpopulated along most of the river between Red Wing and Lake City so I would think/hope they might be a bit more lenient but you never know.
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Chevy made two styles of the 400 cid motors, they made one in the biig block, like the 454's, and the small blok that looked just like a 350. the small block chevy has been built since 1955, with very little change's until the late 80's, a 283 cid, then the 327. 307, a 265, a 302, the 350,and 400's
Now I am wondering if I had a big block or small block 400 in the 69 442 W30 I had when I was in my 20's. I always thought it was a big block but didnt know that much back then (and still dont) but I'm learning. Some documentation I had seen said it put out 375 HP from the factory so I'm thinking big block. Being that a previous owner slapped a 3-deuce set up onto it from a 65-66 442, I am thinking small block but it sure looked and acted like a monster. Especially torque wise. 4:56 posi rear helped. The radical cam that was in there would shake the whole car at idle. I could listen to that all day. ;D It was bad *ass.
Wish I still had it. Black on Black on Black with no power steering, brakes, AC.
OK I know, boats.......
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Yeah, there was a DNR guy who had already pulled over a boat, and another one hiding in the marina entrance just after the 2nd no wake zone heading South.
They didn't pull him over.
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Now I am wondering if I had a big block or small block 400 in the 69 442 W30 I had when I was in my 20's.
They put Oldsmobile motors in 442s Ross.
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Now I am wondering if I had a big block or small block 400 in the 69 442 W30 I had when I was in my 20's.
They put Oldsmobile motors in 442s Ross.
LOL! I know Jerry but I figured that if there was a GM big and small block 400, that it might carry over into other divisions.
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This was before they put a 3800 in everything, even boats.
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh181/50sflash/0726_006.jpg)
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Doran is gonna post some pics for me, I'm still having trouble uploading them to this site for some reason.
looks pretty plain and simple for now. the carb and chrome 4" exhaust tails will add a little "bling", but because of the radar arch on the boat, I have to turn the motor sideways to drop it in, and the less I have bolted on, the better. so I'll finish puting it together in the boat, then post a few more pics. the interesting part will be where I run the exhaust thru. the back of this boat is a funky design, so where the exhaust tails end will pretty much determine the exit point, but I'll make it "cool" and functional one way or another...
Eye Candy added:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-fKvtATHrTG8/Tm1IssVe1SI/AAAAAAAAHRU/4cc3LT9cAtw/s800/031.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ZTTrH71v4RA/Tm1IrpsQ9FI/AAAAAAAAHRQ/0J5uzXcfgVM/s800/030.JPG)
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Sweet man! can't wait till I get a ride! You can't let me have the faster boat can you! >:(. Owell I guess I'll just have to build my own stroker ;D But for now I'll enjoy what I have for a few seasons...
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Looks Good Steve, O Know you're anxious to get that baby Fired Up !
Glad to see you got the right manifold, the first time, that looks like the one I got now ... Good Deal
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Looks Good Steve, O Know you're anxious to get that baby Fired Up !
Glad to see you got the right manifold, the first time, that looks like the one I got now ... Good Deal
yeah, I got the Performer RPM air gap. Should work REAL good with the World Products heads and this cam. It's all gonna be making power right in the rpm range that I want it to. I really like this intake because while it's a dual plane, it has alot of characteristics that will make it work kinda like both a dual plane and a single plane, plus it has the raised carb location, so the runners are more "tunnel ram" style that will really work in the 4000-6000 rpm range. Hoping to get it dropped in over the next few days (gotta coordinate with the neighbor who has the overhead crane, much easier than using my forklift) then I can keep working on getting it all bolted together. I'd love to fire it this weekend, but, the exhaust is gonna be a bit tricky, so that may hold me back a bit. Gettin more excited every day... I wanna hear it run!
And Shrom, you know me, so you KNEW there was a fast boat comin outta here at some point! ;D I figured it was gonna be the Scimitar, but when this deal came along I figured it was a quick project, and a potential hotrod to hold me over till the Scimitar is done. And even this one started out as being a stock rebuild to get it on the water, but, I got the itch, and here we are starin at a pretty mean 383.. So much for stock! Ahh well, the CVZ is stock. Tell ya what, I'll let ya drive it, then I bet we'll be starting on YOUR 383 this winter! ;)
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Looks tough! Cant wait to see it in the boat.
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Motor is in! ;D
I'll get some pics of it soon, it's raining here today so the boat is covered. I'm hoping to get a few minutes of decent weather so I can put the exhaust on temporarily to see what my options are for exit points.
It's getting closer, starting to look like I actually will be able to run this boat some before the end of the season.
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Good for you Steve, it's rainy here today also, but we got a little break, and I was bored, so I thought I'd stir up a little noise, just for you, turn up the volumn.
::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOpB3wG36ik (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOpB3wG36ik)
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Good for you Steve, it's rainy here today also, but we got a little break, and I was bored, so I thought I'd stir up a little noise, just for you, turn up the volumn.
::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOpB3wG36ik (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOpB3wG36ik)
I LOVE IT! ;D thanks Red! it's kinda funny, I went to youtube to look around for any new Glastron videos, and on my channel it said you had uploaded a video (I didn't see this post here yet) and watched it, just lovin the sound of that thing, and at the end I was crackin up laughin. I figured there was probably somethin here about it, so I came here next and found your post. Love it! this weekend is supposed to be better weather, hope I can get some work done on it.
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a little update... got a chance to start piecing things back together (fuel pump, water pump, etc.) and bolted the new exhaust on. these Gil offshore pipes end exactly where I didn't want them to. not high enough to go out above the transom, and not low enough to go out thru it. the CSS-19 has a funky design at the back, I'll try to get some pics up to illustrate it. so I was left with a dilema. I needed to raise the ends of the pipes. they make angled wedges that fit between the manifold and the riser pipe to change the angle. and that would work, except they cost $460 a pair, and the nuts on top will not sit square, so to do it right, I would end up making 8 "wedge" washers to evenly clamp down the riser pipes. and while they make spacer blocks for other brand exhaust, Gil does not, they provide the wedges instead. so, just got off the phone with my machinist friend (everyone should have one!). tomorrow I'll be taking the manifolds and pipes to him so we can machine some spacers for it. I already measured to see if I have enough room under the sunpad for clearance, and we're good. the nice thing is, these are dry joint manifolds, so we only need to cut the exhaust hole and bolt holes (no water passages) in the spacers. and he has the solid stock aluminum material on hand, so this should be a much cheaper alternative to the wedges. hopefully by tomorrow evening I will have my spacers and be getting ready to cut holes in the boat! yeah, that doesn't sound right... wish me luck. ;D
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hopefully by tomorrow evening I will have my spacers and be getting ready to cut holes in the boat! yeah, that doesn't sound right... wish me luck. ;D
Wait till you actually start the cutting process, It feels strange cutting two 4 inch holes in the back of a boat...If you need some tools are help let me know.
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Good for you Steve, it's rainy here today also, but we got a little break, and I was bored, so I thought I'd stir up a little noise, just for you, turn up the volumn.
::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOpB3wG36ik (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOpB3wG36ik)
Glad to hear you are finally getting some rain though.
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I had a similar issue when I put the first motor in my scimitar, I took an old "y" pipe I had, measured, and scratched a couple marks, cut it in pieces, took it to the shop and had the pieces welded together ... poor boy's solution.
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OleRed,
I may end up doing something very similar to that. This boat has two small steps (kinda like two small swim pad areas) at the left and right corners of the back of the boat, and I don't want the tips too close to those that people might catch them getting in or out of the boat, and I don't want them in the way, so I am going to curve them in similar to this pic you posted, so they exit closer together at the back. I had originally thought about bringing them out side by side in the middle, and machining one mounting plate for both pipes. Thought that might look kinda cool, but haven't decided yet, still might do that. Gotta make a decision though, can't fire this thing up till the exhaust is done...
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The side pipes are Cool, but there is not much room for them in our boats, and the thru-hulls for those babies are Expensive, and with the battery and t/trim pumps, and back seat, there's just no room left to mess around back there.
I thought about 2 into 1 exhaust also, can't put it in the middle, drive is right there, can't have an exhaust pipe right above it, just a thru-hull fitting, the drive would hit it when it's tilted up on my boat. I placed my pipes far enough apart for the drive to tilt and turn with-out bumping them, just a thru-hull fitting could be closer, but I figured I might want to put mufflers back there sometime.
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well, on top of having very little time to work on the CSS, we got 5" of snow today, a new record for October here in PA. anyway, I ended up deciding to go out the back of the boat with the exhaust, above the transom, and side-by-side. I think it's gonna look pretty cool. I had a local exhaust shop make me some 4" stainless pipes (cut and weld angles) for now, just to run it. was hoping to splash it this year, but that seems impossible now. I would still like to fire it and run some break-in and tuning time on it. after that, the pipes will go back to the shop, be shipped to a company here in PA that will do seamless mandrel bent 4" polished stainless pipes, should look real good. I put a big push on this thing while building the 383 in the hopes of roaring down the river this year, but there are alot of little details to wrap up before it goes in the water, and I've got alot invested, and alot of potential performance here, so I think I'm gonna exercise some patience and do it right... man I hate doing the right thing! ;D I just wanna hear it run, I think that will hold me over for the winter. I'll post a link to a video as soon as it gets fired up.
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Winter suck's ...
Great time to get all the little details done ... BUT still suck's ...
From the news reports you guy's got hit hard ... up to 19 inches in some spots.
Your gonna have "cabin fever" bad by next March !
So will I ... LOL
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Hey Steve, I got in touch with RC turbosales@velocityair.cc (http://turbosales@velocityair.cc) and bought some 45 degree mandrel bent 4" od aluminum tubes, pretty affordable, he has stainless also, just cost more, I'll cut the tubes in the bend to get the angle I need to match up with the thru-hulls, then I'll take them to the prop shop to get them welded together, and polish them.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/360398292386?_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649&item=360398292386&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/360398292386?_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649&item=360398292386&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK:MEWAX:IT&vxp=mtr)
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Quick update... Got everything together, exhaust is done, side by side 4" tips out the center of the transom, above the rubrail. The engine builder is coming Sunday and we're gonna fire it up.
I'm excited, to say the least!
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Spy Photos!!!
(Yes...my zoom lens does see PA...)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-v4JJJpSZZmA/T21V3P2G7qI/AAAAAAAAHnQ/y-WAqrlMGe4/s800/imagejpeg_3.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-_b5u1d0sehc/T21V2lUkYwI/AAAAAAAAHnI/fItJeyg7KwU/s800/1_imagejpeg_2.jpg)
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You've been BUSY this winter !
Don't forget video of start up ...
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Nice! let me know when you start it. I might swing by.
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Lots of requests for video, will definately do that and post a link.
Shrom, I'll let ya know how I make out... Gonna be firing it over at the neighbors shop because of the rain, but assuming all goes well, you can stop by some evening this week and hear it in person if you like. Don't think it'll be hard to talk me unto cranking it up for ya! ;D
Gregg... I wish I had been working on it all winter, was too busy to get to it, so I took a week off from the daily grind and got alot of time into this. Was getting nervous about having it done so I figured I better get at it!
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Never enough hours in a day to get every thing done ...
I'm just gittin' to mine now ...
But thats because I'm lazy ...
That rear shot looks COOL !
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Thanks Gregg, yeah, I was thinking that having the 4" pipes side by side out the center would look pretty agressive. Kinda has a euro sportscar look. I thought about doing a single rectangular tip, something like 8"X4", but I think this looks better.
Just talked to the machine shop owner about firing it tomorrow... This is like Christmas eve... Better throw down a few Lite's to help me sleep! ;D
Oh, gotta charge the video camera too...
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Ok, so... Unfortunately by the time I got all the details worked out and got things together, I didn't have time to grab the camera and shoot any video, I think I should be able to tomorrow.
Dropped in the distributor, cranked it, and after 2 or 3 rounds of dumping a little gas down the carb, she roared. And I mean ROARED! This thing sounds like any 10 second bracket car at the strip. It is impresssive. I absolutely love it. Had a little issue with the detent switch out of adjustment causing
loss of spark (had me worried) but once we figured out what the cause was, it was back to break in, gauge watching, and cracking the throttle. Haven't even opened the secondaries on the carb yet, and it sounds like an alcohol dragster.
This thing is gonna be fun! I'll post a video link as soon as it's up.
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Can't wait. Living the V8 in a Carlson vicariously thru you.
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Cool Wex. Ya it oughta bark purty good. Nice work. Now all's ya need is some Billy Bob pipes stickin' up'n out ...?
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OKAY... here it is! the much anticipated video. quick, simple, and to the point... POWER!
LOVE IT!!!
can not wait to get this thing finished up, cleaned up, and on the water. ;D
1989 Glastron Carlson CSS-19 with 383 stroker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYiCj1qLqHo#)
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OH YA ! ! !
Wifes yellin' at me ... WHAT IS THAT LOUD NOISE !
Hehehehe ... Nothing Dear ...
Sound GREAT Wex !
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Congrats Wex! So...is this before or after the issues with the electrical system?
Are you sure you don't need to road trip to IA or MN this summer? :)
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Sounds really healthy. What's going on with the dark stains on the hull? Is that a permanent issue or is it something hull cleaner will remove? Always liked that model of Glastron.
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"What's going on with the dark stains on the hull?"
Bottom paint / Anti-fouling
Guessing ....
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yes, some "genius" decided to bottom paint a 19' boat.
it's coming off, and a full buff/wax, possibly a wetsand if I am unsatisfied...
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Congrats Wex! So...is this before or after the issues with the electrical system?
Are you sure you don't need to road trip to IA or MN this summer? :)
after issues, and yes, I would love to come out... I am REALLY hoping my schedule allows it this year. so many people I need to "meet" for the first time, and, maybe burn thru some fuel showing some friends what happens when a built 383 ends up in a 19 footer. all the video I've seen of all the meets points to a GREAT time, and I really feel like I've missed out.
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"I really feel like I've missed out."
Is there enough room in the cuddy to sleep ?
See ya got a new avatar ....
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"I really feel like I've missed out."
Is there enough room in the cuddy to sleep ?
See ya got a new avatar ....
there is room for two to sleep, and not sure on the avatar, I think I may have gotten some help on that one! ;)
when I have a photo of this one flyin' down the river, maybe I'll change the avatar, but for now, that'll do!
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Sounds good!. Lets Race...Give me a head start? The idle seems kinda high, or is that just because of the stroker?
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Sounds good!. Lets Race...Give me a head start? The idle seems kinda high, or is that just because of the stroker?
ok, we'll race, but to be fair, when I say "go", you punch it, and I'll start backing off the trailer. ;D
just messin with ya...
Just haven't set the idle yet, still got all the dialing in to do. The carb is still set "out of the box" for the most part, and wanna get the outdrive and all on before fine tuning, that'll change the idle with the extra spinning weight of the drive shaft and gears, etc.
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Sounds good!. Lets Race...Give me a head start? The idle seems kinda high, or is that just because of the stroker?
ok, we'll race, but to be fair, when I say "go", you punch it, and I'll start backing off the trailer. ;D
I literally laughed out loud at that one, a true LOL
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Sounds good!. Lets Race...Give me a head start? The idle seems kinda high, or is that just because of the stroker?
ok, we'll race, but to be fair, when I say "go", you punch it, and I'll start backing off the trailer. ;D
I literally laughed out loud at that one, a true LOL
Heh,heh,heh... All in good fun. Shrom is a good friend and he knows I'm just yankin his chain. He's mentioned stuffing some more power in the cvx at some point, maybe even a stroker, and if that happens... well, I guess we'll just see which one of us has the "brass" to throttle up, trim out, and hold on for the win! 8) think we'll be wearin life jackets for that one...
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Want a twin? Is this one a bit bigger than your boat?
http://austin.craigslist.org/boa/2926797407.html (http://austin.craigslist.org/boa/2926797407.html)
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Great Video Steve
Ya got me back !
the motor sounds Great
and Hey ... I know where ther is a fresh Alpha drive with the SS gears, 1.32 ratio, that motor will pull em, you'd be looking a 80mph or very close to it.
Love the Video !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOpB3wG36ik
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Want a twin? Is this one a bit bigger than your boat?
http://austin.craigslist.org/boa/2926797407.html (http://austin.craigslist.org/boa/2926797407.html)
it is actually the very same model/size. Mine just has about 200 more horsepower! ;)
sharp boats, but one is enough. There are actually two within a few hours drive from me for sale right now. Mine will likely be for sale after I get to play with it for a while... I'm looking to get a new open bow for all the regular boating needs, and finish up the Scimitar as my classic and hotrod. One stock turnkey boat and one toy should be good enough... But the Scimitar will have alot more power than this css, so I'm already looking forward to that... 8)
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Great Video Steve
Ya got me back !
the motor sounds Great
and Hey ... I know where ther is a fresh Alpha drive with the SS gears, 1.32 ratio, that motor will pull em, you'd be looking a 80mph or very close to it.
Love the Video !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOpB3wG36ik
glad you liked the video Red... I owed you one!
I'll keep that drive in mind, I'm gonna play with what I got for now. I've seen videos of these with only 400hp and ALOT less torque running over 80, so we'll see how the hull handles it, but I'll be playing with props and pushing for closer to 90, but we'll see. This motor will definately be able to turn a steeper prop than the others I've seen, just don't know how much more yet, OR how fast these hulls can go before they get outta hand. Gonna take alot of playing/tuning and getting comfortable with it. If the boat isn't predictable, I'm not gonna push it.
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Hey Steve, I didn't get an absolute speed recorded the first time out, with the 23/24 custom prop, but it was turning 5800 rpm, carb run out of gas just about 76mph, then I put on the new style 26 PowerTech, right out of the box and it brought the rpm down to 5000 @ 78mph, by the gps when the carb run out of gas.
Now .. You got me thinking about dropping my stroker in the emerald mist boat as it is, I have been thinking about tuning it down some, changing out the heads, cam and exhaust manifolds, dropping it in that way, running 87 octane gas, with corn, thats about all you can get now at most marina's ... hmmm we'll see ?
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Hey Steve, I didn't get an absolute speed recorded the first time out, with the 23/24 custom prop, but it was turning 5800 rpm, carb run out of gas just about 76mph, then I put on the new style 26 PowerTech, right out of the box and it brought the rpm down to 5000 @ 78mph, by the gps when the carb run out of gas.
Now .. You got me thinking about dropping my stroker in the emerald mist boat as it is, I have been thinking about tuning it down some, changing out the heads, cam and exhaust manifolds, dropping it in that way, running 87 octane gas, with corn, thats about all you can get now at most marina's ... hmmm we'll see ?
I got you "thinking" about dropping it in as is???
I would say you NEED to! ;D can't see any reason not to! I know fuel can be an issue, I'm lucky that in an area of all ethanol fuel, our marina brings in 89 octane ethanol free fuel... but... if all you have is 87 ethanol, use Startron additive (to keep the ethanol from separating and also quickly dropping octane) and octane boost, and tune to that. I run Startron anyway, because some claim no ethanol, so it's good insurance, plus, it's a stabilizer, so it's a win-win! You built that motor to run, I'd keep it that way... unless you're goin' soft on us OleRed... ;D
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[/quote]
Heh,heh,heh... All in good fun. Shrom is a good friend and he knows I'm just yankin his chain. He's mentioned stuffing some more power in the cvx at some point, maybe even a stroker, and if that happens... well, I guess we'll just see which one of us has the "brass" to throttle up, trim out, and hold on for the win! 8) think we'll be wearin life jackets for that one...
[/quote]
[/quote]
Sorry I havent been up to speed on responding, I have been working on my house none stop. anyhow.
Yeah I laughed myself when he said that, I'll just have to remember to have some one pull his plug right before he drops it in ;) J/k
Your right Wex, The CVX-18 will have more power. But right know I want to run it like this and enjoy it for a while. Maybe built another engine to drop in later...
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Shrom,
if history tells us anything, it'll be ME who forgets the plug! ;D
anyway, enjoy what you have, you've worked hard to maintain it and make your own improvements. you've done well with it, glad it went to someone who is taking good care of it!
when you're ready to start puting something else together, let me know, the guy who helped me build the 383 is not only an excellent machinist with a complete machine shop, but also a very experienced engine builder who can help you put together a motor that will do exactly what you want it to... and CHEAP!
update on the CSS... the bucket seats are finished, just gotta pick 'em up, but need to make the new structures for the rear seat and sundeck to drop off while I'm there, so I can finish up the interior while I'm getting the exterior finished up, and then it's hammer time! ;D
I'm ready to see what this motor's got...
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I'd keep it that way... unless you're goin' soft on us OleRed...
LOL ... I'm beginning to wonder about that myself Steve .
What prop do you plan on going out with first ? The PowerTech I ran last was really impressive, 14 3/4 X 26 VMS set ya back in the seat, decent hole shot, but the rpms a little high, but I sure liked the exceleration from 50 to 75mph Awsome exceleration, the vms is designed for running shallow, raised drive.
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I'd keep it that way... unless you're goin' soft on us OleRed...
LOL ... I'm beginning to wonder about that myself Steve .
What prop do you plan on going out with first ? The PowerTech I ran last was really impressive, 14 3/4 X 26 VMS set ya back in the seat, decent hole shot, but the rpms a little high, but I sure liked the exceleration from 50 to 75mph Awsome exceleration, the vms is designed for running shallow, raised drive.
I'm gonna talk to your prop guy, the CSS doesn't have a raised drive, but it will ride higher than your average "fast" V-hull because of how light it is. Probably start in the 26 pitch range, but unsure of prop style. Don't know that a surface prop is right, and don't think I need anything with excessive bow lift in it... Just gonna talk to the pros and see what a good starting point is, maybe get something that puts the rpm's where I want them and tune the prop a little to how the boat acts with it, we'll see. It's gonna be alot of playing to get it just right I would guess. Who knows, I may have more power than I can use, and
just go with a prop that puts the rpm's where I want them at a safe speed. Just have to wait and see just how fast these hulls can go.
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Steve, the prop they gave me to try out was a new style PowerTech RKR26 it's amazing, and you can get it all the way up to a 30 pitch http://www.ptprop.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=278&category_id=27&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=46 (http://www.ptprop.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=278&category_id=27&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=46)
The prop lists for $562 Bryan at the prop shop here in Okc will sell it for $450 Thats the prop I'll be running when I get this stroker back in a boat.
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Update...
Front seats are reupholstered, back seats and sun deck almost finished. I went with all white, didn't want to spend a fortune and I think it'll look good in this boat.
Got the outdrive back together and discovered the shift cable was tight. Took it all back apart, and busted the bell housing trying to get the retainer nut for the cable out. That's my luck! So $325 later, installed another bell housing and the new cable. Gonna eat lunch and go fight the upper back on. Assuming I don't break anything, I'll put the new water pump kit in and install the lower.
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Another update...
After much cussing, wrestling, and fighting... the outdrive is all back together. One of my least favorite things in this world, but, now I can wrap up the rest of the details. And they are many! ::)
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Installed a new sound system last night, cleaning buffing and waxing today and headed for a trial run... Wish me luck, I'll report back later.
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Good luck Steve, hope it goes well. Looking forward to the "report"!
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BE CAREFULL STEVE !
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No worries Red, I've only got a 21p prop along, no big speed numbers this weekend.
Well, it was a hard day. Every little thing I had to do to the boat fought me all the way. So it's dark now, and I just got to the camper a little while ago. Looks like tomorrow will be the big day, not risking a maiden voyage in the dark. So, I will report from the water tomorrow. Fingers crossed...
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Good Luck Wex
Hope everything works out, will be waiting for results.
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Feel your pain Steve ...
Read "Nice day for prop testing ..."
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Don't take any short-cuts Steve ... and Remember This you can run up the rpms for a "few seconds" but then let it settle back down in the water before ya do it again, thats the only dis-advantage with the Mercruisers, gotta let that upper gearcase cool some between speed runs, unless you got it cooled, I never run mine more than a minute at full speed, and it was professionally set up for the power I put in front of it, but I have turned it 6200 rpm 12 seconds at a time, about 14 times, and I've got 245 hours on this drive doing that. I always use the Mercruiser high performance lube.
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Yeah, I always run the good Merc lube. Hoping the extra cost is doing something! And I know not to run hard for long... I do have a drive shower, but this old stock Alpha probably won't take alot of beating with this much hp, so I'm gonna ease in it on acceleration, and give it plenty of chances to rest. Hoping it makes it thru the season, but I won't be surprised if it doesn't. Can't wait to open it up some tomorrow... it's finally done! It's like Christmas Eve when I was a kid...
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You need Barb's 1.32 drive with that stroker, with a shower, that will last ya a long time, but, the Main Thing ... just don't give the upper gears time to over-heat ... it's not just the "hole shots" ya got to take care of the high end, thats more important. Running that 21 pitch prop you will probably be turnin about 5800 rpm at full speed, just minumize that speed for .. seconds.
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You need Barb's 1.32 drive with that stroker, with a shower, that will last ya a long time, but, the Main Thing ... just don't give the upper gears time to over-heat ... it's not just the "hole shots" ya got to take care of the high end, thats more important. Running that 21 pitch prop you will probably be turnin about 5800 rpm at full speed, just minumize that speed for .. seconds.
solid advice as always Red. I'm just gonna take it up to around 5k rpm's a few times this weekend, still breaking in and no reason to over do it with such a shallow prop. Honestly, with this motor in this 19' boat, I could probably spin 7k-8k rpm's if I wanted to, so with a little self control, I'll just baby it thru until I have a better prop to play with. Just so happy it's gonna be on the water! Interior turned out real nice too, very happy with it. Counting the hours...
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I can let you try out me 23 pitch Laser II see what that does for you. Hopefully I'll see you out there later today!
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Here's the big report...
As usual with a new boat and new setup... issues.
It seemed at first that there was a fuel delivery problem. Cutting out at higher rpm's, and just acting like it was running out of fuel. Went home, got the electric fuel pump, adjusted the floats, and so on. Tried again, better, but not fixed. Checked fuel flow, bowl level, etc. Tried lots of stuff, but end result was the same. Cuts out after running a while, and rpm's decrease more the longer it goes. With the electric pump, fuel delivery is not an issue for lower rpm's, but it still cuts out. Gonna run home in the morning for a complete spare ignition setup and replace parts one at a time. It really seems that after getting warm it starts cutting out, which points to ignition. When coils and such are going bad, they get worse the longer they run, and everything I tried had a cool down period, so it all seems to have the same result. I'll try the ignition, then it's on to new tank, new feed line, another new pump, and then we'll see. Hoping i can fix it tomorrow, I have yet to feel the four barrel opened on this beast...
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Another day of climbing around, soaked in sweat, trial and error. It's been a very hard weekend.
Still no improvements. The boat is coming home with me, I'm removing the tank, replacing the pickup and all lines, ditching the check valve, buying a high volume electric pump, and replacing the entire ignition system, including distributor, with a new marine HEI system. No more games... I'm going to leave nothing to chance. I have replaced almost everything on this boat, and I'm just gonna do whatever hasn't been done. I've been towed twice this weekend and spent all weekend working on it and running for parts. I'm exhausted and sore.
Sorry for the rant, just frustrated. More hard work and expense ahead. I was hoping to be prop shopping this week, not doing major repairs. But, we've all been thru it, and to not expect the possibilty of it is foolish I suppose.
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B. O. A. T.
Break out another thousand ...
Once done and runnin' well ya'll be laughing about it ...
Hopfully that will be real SOON !
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Big bummer Steve. I'm sure you'll get it figured out, but I know that's not the way you wanted to spend your weekend.
Good luck!
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Give me a call Steve, then we'll share here.
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Sorry to hear your having issues Wex. Buy a very high volume fuel pump. Sounds like the beast is starving...
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I know how you feel Steve. I wish the best of luck to you. Need to have that thing on the water! So i can go out with you ;D
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Give me a call Steve, then we'll share here.
Will do Red, I'll call ya tomorrow, it's getting late. I do all my best brainstorming with a beer in my hand and OleRed on the other end of the line... and by brainstorming of course I mean listening to OleRed! ;D But don't tell anybody, people around here think I actually know what I'm doing. ;)
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As Always ...
Good to talk to you Steve, hope it all works out for ya, you got the horse power, just takes a little fine tuning to make it Fly ! let us know how it works out
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As Always ...
Good to talk to you Steve, hope it all works out for ya, you got the horse power, just takes a little fine tuning to make it Fly ! let us know how it works out
A pleasure sir... I think you've got me pointed in the right direction. Raining like crazy here, so I have to wait till tomorrow to get into it. If it doesn't work, I've got solutions, so, it's only a matter of time before "hammer down".
Dissapointment had me frustrated... I'm focused now... Gotta unleash the power!
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Diagnosis... Ignition.
Dropped an automotive HEI distributor in it today (engine hatch and rear seat removed, no closed spaces) and when I bumped the key it roared. Even not being perfectly timed and carb idle adjustments set for the old ignition it was WAY stronger. Had to crank the idle back and adjust because it was firing so much better. Alot better manners when cold, much smoother and stronger idle, and it revs much cleaner.
Tried to call ya Olered and share what I found but couldn't catch ya. I gave the Thunderbolt my best shot and came up empty handed, so HEI is the way I'm going. They do put out more spark as well, so I can run a wider gap on the plug, and get a better burn for more efficiency and power, so I think it's really the way to go with this higher compression motor. And my biggest reason for not going HEI in the first place was the detent switch, but because mine wasn't adjusted right, I had it unhooked for the test run, and I have enough cam and a low enough idle that it goes in and out of gear easily.
So, marine HEI, tune, and try again. I have a feeling next time out will provide a better report.
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Good news Steve!
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sorry I missed your call today Steve, but I been out all day.
The HEI is good alright, but my experience with it was that it would not pick up instataniously after the shift interupt switch was activated, the motor would die each time when the prop was under a load .. like in the water. You must have the switch to pull the thing out of gear with a load on the prop, different condition than running it on a hose, in fact, the shift dog is actually designed to hold the lower unit in gear until the detent switch is activated to allow it to come out of gear, you can even "stretch" the cable trying to get it out of gear if you go around that switch.
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sorry I missed your call today Steve, but I been out all day.
The HEI is good alright, but my experience with it was that it would not pick up instataniously after the shift interupt switch was activated, the motor would die each time when the prop was under a load .. like in the water. You must have the switch to pull the thing out of gear with a load on the prop, different condition than running it on a hose, in fact, the shift dog is actually designed to hold the lower unit in gear until the detent switch is activated to allow it to come out of gear, you can even "stretch" the cable trying to get it out of gear if you go around that switch.
That's exactly what I was afraid of, and the reason I tried to get the Thunderbolt to work. But when I was out on the river last weekend for the trial run, I had the detent switch unhooked because it was giving me issues. I had a long day with the boat Friday trying to get it ready for the water, and just wanted to get out on the water, so I unhooked it and figured I'd deal with it later. Much to my surprise, with my lumpy cam and low idle, it goes in and out of gear no problem, which is what I was hoping for. I know I can hook up the detent with the HEI, but if it doesn't act like it needs it, I'm leaving it disconnected. One less thing to have to adjust. And if I end up falling in love with this boat, I'll put my Bravo on it and won't have to worry about the detent anymore! No boating this weekend while I wait for the marine HEI, but hopefully next week I'll have a good report. Also have a really nice Mirage 27p prop to try coming, so we'll see how that does with this beast running in top form.
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Don't be decieved Steve, with the prop you are running now, there is not much load on the shaft, compared to the prop you will be running, the more load you put on that lower unit, the more need for the shift interupt switch .. you will need that thing. I bought an ignition system for one of my motors ?? a marine MSD HEI ignition system, and that was the feature with it, it did not have an instantanious recovery after the detent switch was activated .. just my experience, so I went back to the thunderbolt, in my opinion, there is not other more proven ignition system for marine use, and you can run more fire thru it with a hotter coil if you choose.
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I know we discussed this Red, and I always consider your advice to be gold. And while the Thunderbolt worked, I just couldn't get it to work "right" no matter what I did. Switched ignition amplifiers, switched coils, disassembled and cleaned all parts of the distributor, rechecked timing, and so on. This thing just doesn't agree with me! After running the HEI for a few minutes, I knew I needed the reliabilty and extra spark, it just runs so much better all around. But that's the experience I have, I've had points distributor cars that would barely run, drop in an HEI and it runs smooth as glass and smokes the tires.
I know you can set these Thunderbolts up to run real good, and I'm sure they are good equipment, there's thousands of them out there running every day. Just not working out for me. There's also alot of newer boats with HEI ignitions, so maybe you had a bad unit, or maybe it's the MSD's? I'm thinking about installing a manual interrupt switch if I have trouble getting out of gear. I'm probably going to install my dual lever shifter/throttle setup, and just mount the switch on the side of the shifter, but I'll wait to see if I need it. I'm really hoping it works with the higher pitch prop as well as it did with the 21. Really wish the Thunderbolt woulda worked, I'd be boating this weekend! And saving alot of money.
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Really wish the Thunderbolt woulda worked,
it's been working for more years than you can imagine, with engine's almost as big as our's.
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Really wish the Thunderbolt woulda worked,
it's been working for more years than you can imagine, with engine's almost as big as our's.
I know, I just couldn't get it to work. I gave it a good effort, just don't know what else to do with it. Spent alot of time on the water and at home working with it. Very frustrating, as it's the last thing between me and making this motor run. The HEI just simply fixes it, and provides better cold starts, idle, and stronger spark for better efficiency and performance.
I know you stand by the Thunderbolt Red, and I never would have thought of changing it if it worked for me. I just can't make it work. I was hoping it was just a coil or the ignition amplifier, but it runs the same no matter what I change out.
I just wanna move on to prop testing, and learning how to drive this hull at ridiculous speeds... all the reasons I built it! ;D
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I dropped in a new MSD electronic distributor. Runs even better than the stock HEI I tried. Gonna put some new plug wires and plugs in it. The wires look good, but I'm not chancing anything, and the plugs were new but have been in there for break in and all this nonsense while it was running like poo. So I think new ones are in order. Hoping the weather cooperates and I can try again this weekend. My 27 pitch Mirage is on it's way, if it's here in time I may try that too, if all goes well.
So that's where I'm at... set timing, plugs, wires, clean it up again, put the interior back together and go see what happens.
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Got my fingers crossed for ya Steve !
Know I've sat on the five gal. bucket out in the garage, face in my hands, shakein' my head, ... thinkin' ... " Why did I sell my other boat that ran just fine"
... LOL
You'll get her goin' !
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Got my fingers crossed for ya Steve !
Know I've sat on the five gal. bucket out in the garage, face in my hands, shakein' my head, ... thinkin' ... " Why did I sell my other boat that ran just fine"
... LOL
You'll get her goin' !
you got that right Gregg... Not only do I have that voice in my head, but I've got the one standing behind me saying "I don't understand why you sold the boat that ran". Like THATS what I wanna hear!
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" but I've got the one standing behind me saying "I don't understand why you sold the boat that ran". "
I don't even wanna talk about that one .....
It's a curse were born with Steve ... A CURSE !
... LOL
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Got my fingers crossed for ya Steve !
Know I've sat on the five gal. bucket out in the garage, face in my hands, shakein' my head, ... thinkin' ... " Why did I sell my other boat that ran just fine"
... LOL
You'll get her goin' !
you got that right Gregg... Not only do I have that voice in my head, but I've got the one standing behind me saying "I don't understand why you sold the boat that ran". Like THATS what I wanna hear!
she was saying that about when you sold me my boat...wasnt she? but im sure that stopped when she heard about my problems lol
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Yeah, she was bummed when you came and got the CVX. It wasn't supposed to sell that fast, and we were boatless for a few weeks while I finished up the CVZ. But she was a little less upset about it going when problems began popping up with it. We both felt really bad though because we like you and Morgan so much, but I assured her that you knew boats real well and that the problems you were having were things no one could have seen coming, so at least you knew we didn't stick the screws to ya by selling it to you. And she feels a little better cause we've been able to hook you up with some stuff at good prices since then. She feels like I do... don't make a buck on a friend, and the better your boat runs the more often you can be out with us. Just wish I had another motor for you to drop in for now.
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Yes These problems are just from having an older boat. Nothing you can do about it but replace it and keep boating. I most deff do not blame you for any of them. Just my luck I guess. But I like to look at it in a positive note. I'll have all new parts soon. ;D I'll get out on the water with ya, I have other boats in the family I can borrow.
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Installing new plugs and wires tomorrow, and re-setting the timing with the new distributor. Shrom let me borrow his timing light and a GPS to check against my factory speedo.
My fingers are crossed, hoping for a rip-roarin' run on the river... the 27 ptich Mirage is here, and waiting to be run. I'm gonna run the 21p, get it out and get some fuel thru it, then put the 27p on and finally open the throttle for the first time...
hoping to post a good report Saturday night. maybe even a pic of the 80mph speedo burried... we'll see.
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.......... 27 pitch Mirage.................
That is crazy! Never even heard of a 27P. Sure will be interesting.
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.......... 27 pitch Mirage.................
That is crazy! Never even heard of a 27P. Sure will be interesting.
If you check out some of the performance boat sites/forums, you'll see that even up to 34p isn't all that uncommon when dealing with massive amounts of horsepower. I just have alot of horsepower in a small boat, so to get the potential out of it, I'm starting with a 27p which should fall somewhere in the middle of the range of where it needs to be. The motor should easily spin it in this boat, will a 28, 29 or more make it faster? No idea yet... The problem is it's uncharted territory. The highest horsepower I've seen in this hull is around 400, running 82 mph. This motor is 450-460hp with ALOT more torque, so, knowing it'll run 82 mph in a straight line is great, but, it might go squirrelly at 85, 87, 90... nobody knows! just gonna be alot of "seat time" and playing with it, trying different pitches and brands/styles of prop, fine tuning the motor, and so on. It is likely that I will hit a "safe" speed and have power left over, but only time will tell. As I've discussed with Red, I'm pretty sure this boat is a little overpowered, and I can respect it enough to not take it beyond it's limits. I won't risk myself or the boat to prove a few more mph!
Anyway, timing is set, plugs and wires are in, interior is back together, and it's river bound tomorrow... 8)
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Good luck tomorrow Steve!
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Hope every thing gos smooth tomorrow !
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Success...
It is running perfect. I couldn't be happier. The motor is making a joke of the 21p prop, but that's fine, I'm just VERY excited with how it runs. Hoping to try the 27p tomorrow, but at this point, not even thinking about speed, just loving the way it sounds and the way it runs. The moment when countless hours pay off in total satisfaction is priceless. Makes me forget all the hours of cussing and wanting to light it on fire.
Very happy.
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Happy to hear everything went well ... Just takes time to test and tune ...
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Good to here its working well for you Steve.
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Congratulations ... those are fun moments.
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Awesome!
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I was glad to get good news from Steve last night about the boat. He has put a lot of hard work into that boat as he does with any boat of his. I hope that he injoys this season and many more wth no problems. After all he does have another project lined up, that im sure he is excited to start.
Be safe Steve, that is a lot of power for such a small boat. You should take up to Raystown lake sometime, so you can have calm water for testing top speed. ;D If you go out early enough that water is like glass!
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Thanks guys... Feels good to know it's gonna run. I didn't have a chance to run the 27p prop yet. Maybe on the holiday or this coming weekend. I did get a little more throttle happy for a couple short bursts on Sunday. It's stupid-fast accelleration with the 21p, and that's going easy on it to baby the outdrive. Took it up to 5,000rpm for a few seconds and bumped the trim up a little, speedo flew by 60 and was around 65 when I pulled out, it was pretty choppy and not real safe for flyin. Sounded awesome, but you could tell the motor wasn't working at all. Can't wait to get out on a calm morning and try the other prop, while this thing roars echoing thru the river valley. ;D
just still excited that it runs, I've got all year to play with it.
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Your a better man then me Steve !
I have no self control and would be at WOT on day one ... LOL
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Your a better man then me Steve !
I have no self control and would be at WOT on day one ... LOL
Gregg, on a calmer day, I don't think I coulda resisted! But, I had precious cargo on board (the little lady) and knowing the setup wasn't anywhere near potential, it was a little easier to hold back. If I get the 27p on with glass water, and runnin solo... hammer time. 8)
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The problem is it's uncharted territory
uncharted territory, I think you're right Steve, for a short boat, you Got to be careful, .. you know I ran the new style 26 pitch PowerTech on my stroker before I pulled it out of Reds Gold for the sale, it ran 78mph at 5200 rpm, no more testing than that, so a 27 pitch with a 15" diameter is not un-realistic on a 20ft Carlson, even with a moderate load.
Me and Barb both know what you are talking about the exceleration ...just Awsome. My motor is built off the spec's of a dyno motor, 440hp with just over 500 pounds torque. Barbs boat, Burnin Daylight, will hold ya back in the seat till about 70mph .. just awsome.
Keep this in mind Steve ... keep the bow down until you get some seat time, all fast boats will get faster with a lite bow, but it's more dangerous, just be careful !
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Yeah, after alot of conversations with you Red I figured I wanted to be somewhere in this pitch range and I found a real good deal on a very nice Mirage Plus 27p, so I figured I'd start there.
Not to worry, I'm very cautious with it. I'm not just gonna go out and give it everything it's got, I need to be sure it's safe and learn how the boat reacts to different situations and how to handle it. All of my boats, even the really fast ones, have been safe at their top speed, you just needed to be smart. This one will likely go faster than it "should" so lots of seat time ahead before I even get close to a top speed number. I'm gonna get some higher rpm runs in so I can start reading the plugs. I have a feeling I can step up the jets a bit, and my timing is set very conservatively right now, so there's more power to be had anyway. I may look into stepping up to the 750 thunder carb, but we'll see. Not sure yet if this 650 is gonna hold me back. I think I'm right on the edge of what it can flow, but we'll see, not jumping into that yet.
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Had the boat out for the 4th, ran great, lots of looks, lots of fun. Gonna try the 27p prop on Saturday, and a buddy loaned me a 28p Bravo 4 blade to try if the 27 seems tame.
Such a good feeling to turn the key knowing it's gonna run perfect. Took the family out to watch fireworks on the river, and got to idle thru a big pile of boats with all eyes on the CSS. Carlson made a beauty with this one. They could sell these today and STILL be considerred futuristic. Love it. Doesn't hurt that it sounds like a blown alcohol dragster! Can't wait to start prop testing, should be fun. I gotta say, at 5200 rpm, this thing sounds wicked, and that's from in front of the pipes. Might have to get Shrom to do a drive by for me so I can hear it...
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you are teasing me more than any old girlfriend did Steve, let's see a video, let's Hear it !
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Might have to get Shrom to do a drive by for me so I can hear it...
I would LOVE to ;D
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you are teasing me more than any old girlfriend did Steve, let's see a video, let's Hear it !
I'll see what I can do about some video Red, don't wanna be a tease! And I'll be sure to post how the prop testing goes.
Might have to get Shrom to do a drive by for me so I can hear it...
I would LOVE to ;D
haha... I thought you might!
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Was out last weekend on my parents boat and met up with Wex. They were nice enough to have Morgan and I to there camper for lunch! Had a great time with Jenn and him. Did not get a ride but thing seems wicked! I got a short video, but insure how to upload it... ??? He was still running the 21 pitch at the time.
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Set up an account and upload to Youtube ...
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I'd be interested to see if you got it coming or going.
Still haven't tried any serious props or jetting at all. I did try a buddy's 23 pitch Quicksilver, but at 70 there was alot of torque steer, and the boat tried to lunge right, so that prop came right back off. Hoping to get the hub piece I need go try the 27 this weekend, and Shrom is gonna loan me his 23p lazer II. My Mirage prop has very good characteristics for this hull, hoping it acts as good with some extra pitch with the 27 mirage.
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It seems that It will not allow me to load the video on youtube. Everytime I try loading it. It just stays at 0%. shows thats its trying to load but never actually does.. Who wants the video? I can email it to you to post ;D I think...
Steve it is a video of you pulling away from me. So it gets the full effect of the exhaust. ;D Sounds pretty good! Cant say its the best video as it is only taken from my phone.
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Email it to me and I'll try to post it.
wexrocks@hotmail.com
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Shrom, I got the video... youtube must have recognized a glitch, the audio was off by about twenty seconds. I heard it idle and then roar off, and the boat was still sitting there! Wierd, not sure how that happens. Maybe I can talk you into recording some for me with my video camera next time so we can let these guys see her in action.
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I can fix the audio/video sync Wex.
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but at 70 there was alot of torque steer, and the boat tried to lunge right, so that prop came right back off.
Hi Steve, check out the steering system first, we haven't talked about that, thats one of the Most important factors to deal with torque steer with the horse power you have, and it can be dangerous, any "slack" in the steering can cause the boat to "lunge right" when the prop gets near the surface, trimmed up, especially over trimmed, when the prop blades grab air, the torque factor changes sides, "slack" in the steering the drive will "slap" over to the right side, causing the boat to steer right Quick, but with a good, snug steering system, it's not that noticable, easilly corrected, after that point the torque steer is not much at all, high speeds seems to reduce the torque steer, in Red's Gold anyway.
The balance of the hull effects torque steer, prop blades is a factor also, especially the props with a "long" rake, cupped, creating a lot of bow lift and torque steer, some props have a lot of blade "root" creating stern lift, when you get a prop with a long rake, and a lot of root, you got a prop trying to lift the boat out of the water, they are fast, but can become very unstable, more apt to chine walk, drifts in turns like an air boat, less boat in the water makes for more speed alright, but only to a point, beyond that point the hull become's unstable, and even dangerous, but safety first means keep the bow down, get some seat time in moderate chop, and learn your set-up. the prop selection process can be very time consuming, and expensive, just Be Carefull !
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Red,
solid advice as always! I'll try to call you this weekend to discuss a few things and catch up.
gonna have to go over the steering system more carefully. the Mirage 21 works excellent with the boat, just not enough pitch, but it goes straight as an arrow at 70. the Quicksilver I tried may have been enough of a different prop to expose an issue that the Mirage didn't.
if I decide to keep this boat for next season and keep tuning it for more power and prop testing for max speed, I may do a new transom assembly over the winter to reduce any play, and all new steering. maybe even some external hydraulic steering rams for more stability. we'll see how it goes as I play with it. I'm no where near the speeds that this motor can push it, just been breaking it in and playing a little. but, I wanna be safe about it.
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Red,
a pleasure as always to talk to ya. I'll try to get some video so everybody can hear this thing run... it's somethin else! I want everybody here in the group to be able to enjoy it too.
I have REALLY enjoyed running this boat, and this motor. lots of work and time into both to make it what it is. The CSS is an extraordinary design for sure, and this motor really brings out the best in it. alot of fun, absolutely.
with the right prop and a little tuning, this boat will easily be in the 80's. beyond that, who knows. but thats all testing and seat time. I'm gonna take it easy this year I think, and then dyno tune the motor this winter, and prop test to that next year. in the mean time, I'll prop test, tune, and hang on...