Minnesota Classic Glastron Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: dorelse on August 20, 2013, 10:51:34 PM
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Where this wire was hooked up to...and if its why the boat won't start!? Is it possible I have a broken ground (looks like the wiring loom broke loose) and could have snapped this wire....BUT...I didn't run any splices like that and tried to remove any and all spliced wires, so I have to keep looking as I don't see its other half...could my detent switch be always on right now? I wonder...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pNRGwjcoM3g/UhQ2t-CLULI/AAAAAAAASNw/IDnVUql2yjI/s800/100_0557.JPG)
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I doubt it's anything important, it was probably an accessory ground. If there was anything on the engine that needed a ground the engine block itself would be the ground.
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We were getting power to the distributor before, during and after cranking, I don't think power is an issue.
Terry
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And it definitely looks to have been cut. For your own peace of mind, you could just follow it to its origin. If you don't have a mating end anywhere, then you know its nothing.
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Well...dang...for a sec I had hope...but I figured that was nothing too...its not in the right place to mean much.
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Yea, if you are getting power to the coil and distributor it should run. Did you check for spark?
Everyone should have one of these.
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Yes Jason, we checked for spark. I thought it was weak though.
Terry
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Well, O'Reily's tested the Ignition Control module and their test said its bad. Bought a new one, installed it, no difference. Well...it might be a bit better. Sputters more, still not catching...
Still not running. I have Spark, confirmed with the spark tester, I have gas, watched gas shoot down the engine. What's left?
Terry's suggestion is to change the plugs out...I think that's a good idea, they're soot black, and not at all clean. Might be a good next step.
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Distributor tight? It didn't move on ya did it?
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Distributor tight? It didn't move on ya did it?
I'll check...do I just try and move it?
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Distributor tight? It didn't move on ya did it?
I'll check...do I just try and move it?
Yup. If you can turn it by hand with a reasonable amount of effort, it may have moved on its own. Black plugs could mean a couple things. Timing way off could do it. Choke stuck or not opening fully could too, but it would probably run when it's still cold. Unless the plugs are fouled.
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Terry can attest that the plugs are in pretty bad shape. They were soaked with gas from flooding the engine trying to start it when he pulled them.
Going to check distributor and put some new plugs in...I'm not sure why its running rich.
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Choke not opening will "flood" it because of the restricted air. A float sticking could be overfilling your carb. Didn't you recently have carb issues? Besides overfilling, there might an issue inside the carb that is allowing fuel to run in. Float height could be an issue as well.
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Yes, my accelerator pump never had gas in it, so it would always hesitate when I'd 'hit it'...so I adjust the float up slightly to allow more fuel in the bowl. Re-installed and test started & ran engine multiple times before Red Wing, though, never on the water. I then removed the carb and reexamined the gas levels in the bowl and it looked good. Re-installed ran engine again, no issues.
I let it sit for a couple weeks, pulled the boat out cold, fired up in 1/2 a crank as usual, packed it for Red Wing.
Honestly, I suppose it could be flooding out, but I'm no expert and Terry didn't think that was a case. If I disconnect the fuel line and just spray starter fluid down the carb, the result is the same.
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Renamed the thread.
I copied down the existing plugs: NGK R5673-8
I can't find them as a plug used for Marine engines, only Racing (assuming 8 is the heat range?). NGK says I should have standard YR5, V-power YR5GP or YR5IX (Iridium).
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Renamed the thread.
I copied down the existing plugs: NGK R5673-8
I can't find them as a plug used for Marine engines, only Racing (assuming 8 is the heat range?). NGK says I should have standard YR5, V-power YR5GP or YR5IX (Iridium).
Doran, I was going to ask what plugs are in goldie. I had NGks in Phoenix last year and they were fowled out by mid july. put another set in and lasted the rest of the season. The ones I had also turned black and would not throw spark. I switch to the ac delco marine plugs and have not had a problem all summer this season. IMO Get Rid of the NGK Plugs, they are probably the problem.
I can't remember where I read it but the article stated that NGK spark plugs will fowl out during Idling. Constant high RPMs they are good but if you idle like we do through no wake zones and do alot of low rpm running they will fowl out.
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I agree with Wex that the timing should be checked.
Brandon you could be correct about the plugs although I have a hard time believing they are soo bad that the motor won't even start or run. Especially considering that was a brand new motor a 3 years ago. But who knows. Still I wouldn't spend money on anything but an AC plug in either of my MerCruiser engines. I have never changed out the AC plugs in my SeaRay that I got used and this is my 9th season with it.
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I agree with Wex that the timing should be checked.
Brandon you could be correct about the plugs although I have a hard time believing they are soo bad that the motor won't even start or run. Especially considering that was a brand new motor a 3 years ago. But who knows. Still I wouldn't spend money on anything but an AC plug in either of my MerCruiser engines. I have never changed out the AC plugs in my SeaRay that I got used and this is my 9th season with it.
I would not say they aren't throwing spark, maybe just a weak spark. When I had the NGKs installed in Phoenix, with a fresh set the first start was great, motor would barely crank over. this would continue for the next couple times, but once I had a few hours on her she became cold blooded and took forever to start would have to have the throttle almost wide open to get her to fire and even after running she did not like to idle and would always try to die on me.
Now with the delco plugs she coughs alot but never dies when she is idling when she is cold but once warmed up she never gives me a fit purrs like a kitten. I have also noticed it seems like i have gained a little more lower RPM power compared to the NGKs.
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They were throwing spark, but it was very weak.
Just put in the correct AC Delco plugs, (verified gap) and it started right up.
Here's what the plugs looked like:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HgOGHM_jR2w/UhZzguCb15I/AAAAAAAASOI/7iyE3LEHduA/s800/%255BUNSET%255D.jpg)
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That's crazy.
I keep a set of spares with me, just in case. Always did with my 2 cycle motorcycles, too.
But you aren't 2 cycle ... Glad to hear it's up and running. Going out one last time before putting to bed?
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WOW! I was gonna say that plug looks like it came out of a 2S motor. Looks like Branden was right!
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That's crazy.
I keep a set of spares with me, just in case. Always did with my 2 cycle motorcycles, too.
But you aren't 2 cycle ... Glad to hear it's up and running. Going out one last time before putting to bed?
Yeah, probably...gotta make sure this is the real fix, or if I have something fouling the plugs. However, I don't trust the trailer for more than a trip up to Saylorville.
Credit where credit is due, Terry suggested the Ignition Control Module, which was bad...and we were talking about plugs next...but yes, thanks to Brandon for chiming in on his experience with NGK's (and knowing they were already the wrong plugs), got me to get them swapped out before trying anything else.
Thanks Terry, Brandon and all those who helped at Red Wing. For $20, I'll have another complete set with me all the time now.
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Could be running rich if they are all like that. Ever had your carb gone through?
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From the looks of those plugs I'd say it's either running rich or the carb is dumping in fuel due to a bad inlet needle or float height.
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Could be running rich if they are all like that. Ever had your carb gone through?
Carb was rebuilt 2 years ago...
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From the looks of those plugs I'd say it's either running rich or the carb is dumping in fuel due to a bad inlet needle or float height.
Ok, I'll need to figure out if the carb float height is correct.
I don't know if this means the inlet needle is ok or not, but, when we had Jason's electric fuel pump hooked up, we could hear it fill up, then stop. I assumed that meant that it wasn't just dumping fuel down the motor...but wouldn't tell me if the float is too high.
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How old are those?
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How old are those?
Plugs? About 3 seasons...maybe 80 hours on the engine total...
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I don't think I've ever heard anything bad about NGK's
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I don't think I've ever heard anything bad about NGK's
Me either. I run them in just about everything.
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Honestly I hadn't either until I found that article. I wish I could remember where I had found that! It had some good information in it about plug use in inboards and outboards.
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I remember talking and before you came to Redwing you only ran it on the hose in the drive and at Idle for an hour or so If I remember correct. That is probably one reason that the plugs are so black. I would go run it and see what they look like after. No point chasing carb issue if you dont know it's the problem.
Couple boats ago had a carb rebuilt and thought while that was being done I would do plugs and wires. Store on had champion plugs (i hate Champion) but wanted to get on the water. Put it back together and would not run tried everything carb went threw again, timing, firing order, points & condenser, finally pulled new plugs out and put old in and started right up no problem. Stupid Champion!
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If anyone has an SBC aluminum dual plane intake laying in the corner gathering dust and would like to donate it to Doran (been hunting for him but no luck so far), I'll pay the shipping to his door. I am giving him the 4bbl quadrajet off the original motor in my CVZ. That will wake Goldie up a bit!
Rich
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I would think a guy could almost spit and hit a SBC intake
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I'm honestly not looking to make any modifications to the boat. I just got it back running! :D Plus, I have no idea how to even replace that stuff. I've talked about adding it to make it a 228 vs. 198 motor, but I'm a little gun shy on that upgrade after Red Wing.
I like that the 2 barrel uses less gas, albeit a little less gas, but also, its plenty fast for me.
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They claim that a q-jet gets better mileage than a 2bbl because the primary barrels on the q-jet are smaller. Now once you open up the 4bbls, it's a totally different story
Terry
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They claim that a q-jet gets better mileage than a 2bbl because the primary barrels on the q-jet are smaller. Now once you open up the 4bbls, it's a totally different story
Terry
You typing 1 handed?
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And...that makes sense. More power, better mileage? Ok, twist my arm why don't ya.
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Yes Doran, and it stinks
Terry
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I musta missed something?
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I injured some of my fingers on my left hand today.
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Are you OK Terry ?
Is it bad ?
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I got into a fight with a 2x4 and a table saw and lost the board hit my hand , broke middle and ring fingers, tore half my pinky finger nail off, dr removed rest to place stitches, and about 30 stitches in my 2 broken fingers. Other than that, doing great thank you!
Terry
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Sorry to hear that Terry, Hope everything heals ok.
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OH MAN !
OUCH !
That sounds bad ...
Hoping for a fast recovery buddy ...
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Whoah!
Glad nothing worse happened to you. Oh man.
Thoughts of a speedy recovery from Courtney and I to you.
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Thanks everyone! Sorry for high jacking your thread Doran
Terry
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Still fouling plugs...these have about 20-30 mins of idle & a bit higher run time on them. They're not wet this time, but I wouldn't have expected them to foul so quickly.
I found my carb problem, that is now fixed.
I did validate that when the motor is running & warm, the choke plate is vertical, so I don't think that's an issue. What's next? Take it out and run the crap out of it on fresh plugs and see if they're still fouled?
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What do you mean when you say the carb problem was found and fixed?
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What do you mean when you say the carb problem was found and fixed?
What I found was that I was not getting enough fuel in the bowl. I never had any fuel in the accelerator pump. The reason for that was that the float wasn't set properly. I adjusted it.
I do not see any fuel overflowing down the carb through the overflow tube (not sure what its called for sure), so I'm pretty sure I don't have too much fuel in the bowl either.
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If the float level was too high you would see fuel dripping into the venturi throats from the nozzles while the engine was running at idle.
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If the float level was too high you would see fuel dripping into the venturi throats from the nozzles while the engine was running at idle.
Right, I don't have any fuel dripping down the throats. If my son gives it a quick shot, the accelerator pump shoots fuel as expected. I'm going to check the idle mixture screws tomorrow.
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I got into a fight with a 2x4 and a table saw and lost the board hit my hand , broke middle and ring fingers, tore half my pinky finger nail off, dr removed rest to place stitches, and about 30 stitches in my 2 broken fingers. Other than that, doing great thank you!
Terry
Did the 2x4 kick back at you? Lucky you didnt saw any digits off.
For sale: Table Saw
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Sure doesn't seem like a lack of fuel if plugs are still fouling. When you say "fouling" do you mean they look black already or are there some that are "miss firing" or not firing at all?
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Sure doesn't seem like a lack of fuel if plugs are still fouling. When you say "fouling" do you mean they look black already or are there some that are "miss firing" or not firing at all?
Black, covered in carbon.
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Sounds rich to me.
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Yes Ross, the board kicked back at me. I'll take the lessor of the 2 evils
Terry
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Ok, more progress, I think. Before, I could 'goose' the throttle, and I would see black crap come out of the exhaust. Now, it wasn't ever anything I was concerned about, but I always thought it was weird.
Anyway, I discovered that the idle mixture screws were 3 1/2 turns out, and thought that might be the cause of my rich condition. Re-seated them and went 1 1/2 turns out. Played a little bit with them, but 1 1/2 turns really seems to be the right spot. No hesitation at all, no black streak when I hit the throttle. Boat starts great, seems to run great as well.
I need to get it on the water and see where its at when under load, but hopefully, that has fixed the plug fouling issue.
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Finger's crossed for ya !
EDIT ...
Wasn't meant as a cheap shot at ya Terry ...
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Lol
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Really Gregg? I didn't take it that way at all
Terry
If I thought you were giving me a cheap shot Gregg, I'd send you a few pics to get even]
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Really Gregg? I didn't take it that way at all
Terry
If I thought you were giving me a cheap shot Gregg, I'd send you a few pics to get even]
What did I do to deserve the pics? lol
I know, I asked for it. When did that happen Terry? Just wondering if more swelling is expected. All I can say is OUCH![/list]
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It happened Friday Ross. I have a DR appointment in the morning hopefully he won't have to put a pin in
And I asked Gregg if he wanted to see pics also, he said no that it would make him sick
Trust me, I didn't take pics of the really gross things
Terry
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Just hearing about it make me sick ...
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If you get a pin, that's the easy part. (Well, I was asleep when I got mine). Getting it out isn't fun.
I had my middle finger knuckle pinned at 90* for about 6 weeks. At the Dr's appointment, she walks in and says "let's take a look." She held my hand with both of hers, twisting this way and that. There was still some swelling, but I had kept it clean and the pin was sticking out about 1/4 or so. She asked if I was ready to get it out, I said "yes." She said "good" as she reached in her back pocket. Out came a pair of pliers. She grabbed the pin with them and twisted and pulled until it came out. Not so much as a "Hold your breath, this might hurt." Then, the torture device came out. After six weeks at 90*, I couldn't straighten my finger. I got some crank device that had a threaded thumb screw that literally pushed my knuckle down, thread by thread. I was suppose to wear it for hours at a time, constantly increasing the pressure. I still can't lay my knuckle flat. Little things like twisting the crank of a can opener can make it hurt like heck.
I sure hope you get healed up, Terry.
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It happened Friday Ross. I have a DR appointment in the morning hopefully he won't have to put a pin in
And I asked Gregg if he wanted to see pics also, he said no that it would make him sick
Trust me, I didn't take pics of the really gross things
Terry
OK I'll send them to Gregg, just like he asked. ;D
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No need for a pin.
Terry