Minnesota Classic Glastron Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Plugcheck on August 17, 2015, 10:38:08 AM
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Pic of my lower unit Saturday night, as Gump would say, "it happens"
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That sucks but at least you didn't remove the whole lower unit or crack it and loose the oil.
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Ouch Mike.
This was on the St. Croix?
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Tim was able to go on plane through the war zone aka the st Croix. We considered stopping at Prescott and trailer it out, Terry had the trailer key, but he still had enough voltage to get back on plane south of the no wake zone at Prescott. We got back up, I was following him to the right of his wake. He hit it also, tearing off the fin from his jet. I somewhat remember a lot of boats coming/going and I think we went too far right to avoid them. I ran to shore asap to check damage, Tim came back a short while later. I thought I was going down. Ended up on shore just north of where the other boat sank. First thing that ran through my mind mind was that I likely do not have enough flotation foam.
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By navionics it looks like a couple pretty long wing dikes just out of the no wake zone to the south of Prescott. I don't remember any buoys in that area I will have o check the gopro video this evening to see. Maybe that is what took out that cruiser.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/17/497c0aeb24300d6e9b6b8ef0198fa2b4.jpg)
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That sucks. Wind dam? Log?
I was just going to say an event with no major breakdowns. At least, as far as i know, everyone made it back under their own power.
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Usually towards the end of summer the river is at it's lowest. It has it's benifits like slow current and not much debris, but the down side is you can hit wing dams if you go over them. It's usually difficult to see ripples. Needs to be dead calm. Just stay between red/green buoys and watch for logs and river boating is easy.
I know this gets covered in the safety meeting before the Saturday ride. I think with the lack of a common area caused a lot of members to miss the meeting. Notes for next time.
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I know this gets covered in the safety meeting before the Saturday ride. I think with the lack of a common area caused a lot of members to miss the meeting. Notes for next time.
I don't remember seeing any buoy's either Mike...I just followed a couple other boats in and out and I guess I got lucky as I had no idea the St. Croix had wing dams there...so I would have been in the same boat as you...in fact, I remember seeing boats and tubers on the East side of the river as I approached Kinni beach.
What's the next step Mike? SEI Drive?
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The area Brandon has posted, is on the Mississippi River. Looks like it's right after the no wake zone heading south
Terry
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The area Brandon has posted, is on the Mississippi River. Looks like it's right after the no wake zone heading south
Terry
Duh.
Regardless guys, very sorry to hear you both took damage, that is no bueno.
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Well, look on the bright side. Ya might pick up a mph with no skeg ...
Sorry killing time in St Louis.
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I may not be reading the Navionics print correctly, but if I am, then going to the left or up is heading down river. The line is the state boundary, not the channel, correct? In any case, we were right of the buoys, but I thought red-right-return which we believe to indicate that the red buoys should be on your right when going upstream, then they should be on your left going downstream? Honestly, I thought we were in an area of no buoys? Ya know the funny thing, we never consumed a drop of alcohol on Saturday before getting back that night, see what happens when you only drink water! Checking last night, I found gouges and some chunks of wood in the drive. Oil came out OK, so hopefully I can use the housing. Maybe I could move to Prescott and rebuild outdrives for a living, sounds promising?
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the right side of the picture would be going down stream and the left would be heading up.
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We were near the middle, or slightly right of middle when it happened, likely we we south of the map location. Does the river turn and then have wing dams on the other side.
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Sorry about your return trip. Here are some pics going south. And yes, there are wing dams to the Minnesota side of the river.
Terry
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The second image you posted looks as close to our scenario as we can recall. We were near the middle, but likely right of green buoys, if there were any. I will find some navigation electronics before next year.
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I took some chunks out of my skeg as well but it was at the exit of the TI bay or lake. I was way right before I noticed the small channel by the sign to exit the bay/lake. Jerked the boat a bit but not too massive.
I got out of the channel a couple of times on the way back Saturday as well. Between Prescott and TI. Sometimes I could not see the buoys or they completely shifted from Mn side to Wi side and I wasn't paying attention. I dont recall hitting anything at those times.
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You can download detailed maps of the Mississippi by chart numbers. The legend indicates that the "fingers" coming out from the banks of the River on both sides are the wing dams. Best bet is to never stray outside of the red and green marked buoy channel, even though there is a lot of distance to the banks.
Legend to the maps: http://www.mvr.usace.army.mil/Portals/48/docs/Nav/NavigationCharts/UMR/LEGEND.pdf (http://www.mvr.usace.army.mil/Portals/48/docs/Nav/NavigationCharts/UMR/LEGEND.pdf)
Chart #18 from mile 808 to 814 of the Mississippi from the junction of the St. Croix and Mississippi Rivers.
http://www.mvr.usace.army.mil/Portals/48/docs/Nav/NavigationCharts/UMR/CHART_18.pdf (http://www.mvr.usace.army.mil/Portals/48/docs/Nav/NavigationCharts/UMR/CHART_18.pdf)
Chart #19 to just about treasure island, miles 808 to 803:
http://www.mvr.usace.army.mil/Portals/48/docs/Nav/NavigationCharts/UMR/CHART_19.pdf (http://www.mvr.usace.army.mil/Portals/48/docs/Nav/NavigationCharts/UMR/CHART_19.pdf)
Chart #20 to lock and dam #3, miles 802 to 796
http://www.mvr.usace.army.mil/Portals/48/docs/Nav/NavigationCharts/UMR/CHART_20.pdf (http://www.mvr.usace.army.mil/Portals/48/docs/Nav/NavigationCharts/UMR/CHART_20.pdf)
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Thanks for the maps, I will need to have those handy for next year. From a cursory review, it appears we clipped the dams in the MP 810 area. I do not remember seeing any buoys, river was fairly straight, and we were very close to the middle. Got pushed to the right from larger boats wake, trying to find calmer water. In hindsight, we should have stopped and waited for the channel to clear up some. Education comes in many forms, sometimes we learn the hard way.
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I will find some navigation electronics before next year.
Got a smart phone? Get Navionics.
Nice to see a lot of other members are using this. It's saved me many times.
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Was also told that I can purchase an SD chip for my Garmin Nuvi that will do navigation on the water. Got all winter to look at all the offerings. Having an on board chaperone would be reassuring, especially if I purchase the SEI outdrive.
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Found several sources for weld on skegs, but for alpha gen 2. Having some trouble finding one for earlier gen 1 alpha. Anyone know of an online source?
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You can use the gen 2 replacement skeg on a gen 1, I've seen it done.
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This guy in New Progue is real good. I've seen him repair some realy bad ones. Also very good with props. and reasonable on price.
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If that does not work out, try Mark's prop shop in Stacy, MN. He has fixed two of my skegs and straightened props.
http://www.markspropshop.com/ (http://www.markspropshop.com/)
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Terry
Some Navigation program would be nice but can you really look at it while piloting a boat?
I had NO idea there are that many wing dams.
I don't see any where I think I lost a chunk of my skeg. Maybe just shallow.
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I know I have the advantage when it comes to reading the river, I grew up on it. There are only a few instances when "reading the river" is just about impossible. Saturday we all experienced one of those. When the wind blows up river it can be hard if not impossible to spot the ripple above the wing damn. Depending on current flow that ripple is usually just down river, I'm talking feet, of the actual dam. It also depends on how deep the dam is. The deeper the dam the less of a ripple. I can explain more later. It is daddy daycare time.
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I got good at spyin them Sunday thanks to Bob'n Jeremy. Once I knew what I was looking for I could see em purty easily. But I can deinitely envision the water bein so rough you might not see one?
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We were able to spot some of them when the conditions calmed down, seems odd they would purposely create such a hazard. The Missouri river also has similar dams, but they are well above the water except for very high water conditions, and NO ONE boats when those conditions are present. From what I found out, it differs due to the currents involved. The Miss runs a bit slower, so they are longer to create enough flow to "gouge" the channel, but under to deal with high water conditions without dramatically increasing flow rate. At least that what's a local COE guy suggested. Bought a weld on skeg online yesterday for roughly $25.00, when it arrives, it will be time to tear down the lower half. Was considering adding a nose cone, but cant seem to locate one for an Alpha. The very nose of the drive took a pretty good gouge, so I need to do something in that area, just filling and smoothing seems a bit plain considering I will already be there welding. From what I've read it will take some time, you must be cautious about too much heat in the housing deforming the thrust bearing area. Might just have to post some pics on this project since I've not seen this issue covered before on this forum.
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Terry
Some Navigation program would be nice but can you really look at it while piloting a boat?
I had NO idea there are that many wing dams.
I don't see any where I think I lost a chunk of my skeg. Maybe just shallow.
Yes and no Ross. Yes if you're going slow enough to watch the screen, along with moving the screen as you travel. When Nancy and I returned from eating dinner on Wednesday evening, I was using the Navionics app to navigate the channel from the Mississippi to TI as it was too dark to see. I had used it on our way to dinner, so, it showed where I had boated on my way out. Just followed the line back in!
Terry
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I'm likely going to have to do something. Not sure what App I want or if I want a depth gauge (too late) or an actual screen. I'd like something I can take from boat to boat so a phone app would be good but then I'd have to mount it.
I looked today and besides my skeg damage, one blade on the prop took a hit.
The problem I think I had was loosing the buoys. If I can only see one, I assume I can be to the other and the channel is just wide.
Been boating since I was about 5 but its all been lakes prior to 2009
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Thanks for the maps, I will need to have those handy for next year. From a cursory review, it appears we clipped the dams in the MP 810 area. I do not remember seeing any buoys, river was fairly straight, and we were very close to the middle. Got pushed to the right from larger boats wake, trying to find calmer water. In hindsight, we should have stopped and waited for the channel to clear up some. Education comes in many forms, sometimes we learn the hard way.
Sorry Mike. We waited until both you and Tim were running and coming out into the channel at Kinni. Kinda took off after that but would have likely led you into whatever it was you hit. Don't follow me. That part of the river is unfamiliar to me but regardless, the buoy colors remain the same. Many times on the Sunset Cruise, I could not differentiate between green and red. Must be age..or the sun or lack there of. Those suckers should be florescent!
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No one to blame but me for a lack of preparedness. Next year I hope to have some form of GPS guidance should I find myself apart from the group. Maybe a local for copilot duties?
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This is how Mark's Prop Shop in Stacy, MN attached a stock skeg to the broken skeg on my 1988 115 HP Mercury. Note the zig zag cut where it is attached to get additional strength. The skeg broke when the former owner backed the boat down the driveway.
Motor has been sitting since 2011 waiting for the Johnson outboard to retire.
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Handsome on the transom! Good looking OB, and nice work on the Skeg. I would be tempted to do a bolt on skeg if I had that much remaining, but I have little to none left to bolt to. The new skeg I bought looks identical to that, it appears that the Alpha 1 gen 2 is the only one available for a decent price. Some NOS around, but I was not willing to part with $140+ to buy one. Thinking about some other touch ups while I'm done there if I can find some billet to turn. Nose cones appear to be available for Bravo only, doesn't anyone go fast with an Alpha anymore?
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Another problem is that sometimes one of the channel markers are on the shore. There are not always 2 in the river one my be in the middle of the river and the other on shore. There is one spot that I always get outside where I should be when heading back to TI. I have always caught it at the last minute and went to the other side of the buoy. I am sure that is where you got off course. The "channel goes way to the east side of the river and the green buoy is in the middle of the channel.
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Ya. You probly zigged when ya shoulda zagged ... Bummer.
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That is a bummer man! But I suppose it could have been worse!
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Fwiw I nicked the bottom while back. Took a hunk outa the skeg but didn't damage the prop? Felt lucky til the gearcase came apart couple weeks later ...
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Another problem is that sometimes one of the channel markers are on the shore. There are not always 2 in the river one my be in the middle of the river and the other on shore. There is one spot that I always get outside where I should be when heading back to TI. I have always caught it at the last minute and went to the other side of the buoy. I am sure that is where you got off course. The "channel goes way to the east side of the river and the green buoy is in the middle of the channel.
This sounds familiar. Luckily, I didn't hit anything that time.
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Ross, you mentioned that you couldn't tell the difference between the buoys on the sunset cruise. ...........I'm drawing a blank right now but one has a triangle top, the other has a square top.
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Now you tell us…
When the sun is behind the boys you can't tell what color they are
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Not sure if this dipicts the bouy symbols correctly.
Terry
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Not sure if this dipicts the bouy symbols correctly.
Terry
Yep. That's shown correctly.
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Took my bride out camping last night, got this picture at sunset of a Missouri river wing dam, lots easier to identify. Yep, folks still hit them. Damage in that case is generally worse than a broken skeg.
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very beautiful Mike!
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Taking the outdrive off tonight, came back from camping because severe weather was forecast. Got my new skeg, pretty rough finish, but I suppose that it's designed for finishing and blending after welding. Got it from TH Marine, alpha gen 2 I believe.
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I have completed the skeg repair, and took a few photos along the way. If you folks want, I can probably put together a short tutorial of what I did. I should make a new thread, but do we have a repair type of forum to place that in, Doran? Really not that bad a process, but rather time consuming. Since everyone saw the broken skeg, well here is the end result.
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Looks great Mike! Looking forward to next weekend!
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Look'n Good, Mke. Nice weld job.
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Mike ...
If you have never been to the " Vendor and Repair Resources " section of the forum, you should check it out ...
YES ! ... Please start a "Skeg repair" thread in that section.
http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?board=7.0 (http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?board=7.0)
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I'm surprised you didn't weld a nosecone on there while you were at it... ;)
Good job though, looks great.
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All I could find were nosecones for Bravo drives. Seriously considered turning one on the lathe, but then changed plans due to the new boat becoming the performance craft. My Intimidator will receive the 388, and the CVZ will have either the Merc 260 from the timi, or its original 898. I still want to finish the CVZ, but the CVX padded hull simply cannot compare with the Timi's v hull and higher X dimension.
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Here's a good article about nosecones/cleaver props and their effect on performance. The just is that unless your running over 85 MPH a nosecone on a sterndrive isn't gonna do anything but slow you down. So save your time and money.
http://blog.boattrader.com/2013/06/cleaver-props-and-nose-cones.html (http://blog.boattrader.com/2013/06/cleaver-props-and-nose-cones.html)
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I have read the article you posted before, in fact I've read dozens related to cones, skegs, props, and drives. So much info out there, its hard to make solid choices. If I had a cone available, I probably would put it on just for fun, and also because the nose took a dent and may be vulnerable, or more so than before. All discussion aside, the CVZ is likely to go forward as more of a family fun boat which if it can do 45-50mph that's probably good enough. Who knows, maybe it gets the 305, the timi gets the merc 260, and the 73 RS Camaro gets the stroker? Who knows, its all a grand experiment. I have collected all my pics and done a bit of writing, so I will be posting a repair guide to Skegs soon on the vendor resources.
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If I remember correctly Ole Red just welded on a couple pieces of aluminum in a cross shape.
Then ground to the shape he wanted and filled in with epoxy.
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I don't think I'm going to have time this year but early next year I will take the drive off my CVX18 and do a full speed run with both drives so we can put this to rest. I'll just change the drives in the parking lot.
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Don't them WOT for very long!!
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Don't them WOT for very long!!
Why, what happens Barb?
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Tim, I thought you sold your 18? What is the difference in drives between them?
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No, I didn't sell it. The Intimidator has a nose cone. The 18 does not.
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I don't think I'm going to have time this year but early next year I will take the drive off my CVX18 and do a full speed run with both drives so we can put this to rest. I'll just change the drives in the parking lot.
Cool idea Tim! My money is on the stock drive as being the fastest. Here's a guy that stuck a nose cone his alpha drive and lost 5 MPH.
http://checkmate-boats.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-9526.html (http://checkmate-boats.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-9526.html)
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Less'n yer gonna raise the X dimension. All you're doing with a nose cone is increasing the size/overall displacement of the gearcase.
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No nose cone, from I have learned the timi may benefit due to the higher x dim and v hull, but not the Cvx hull. Got the drive back on, and set tonight's score on the propshaft. It's a merc trophy in 25p. Smaller diameter, but I have Thru hull exhaust so ventilation should not be an issue. You may notice the trim tab will need some clearancing. Hope to try it out this Sunday.
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Here is the photo of the completed skeg/prop repairs. Could not post with previous posting, it just would not go through.
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Do you need that tab if you have power steering ?
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Well, that is a very good question. Before I had nothing but a big open hole where a trim tab or coverplate used to be. Even with power steering, I found that at WOT the steering wheel pulled hard to the left. I later found an issue with the PS reservoir being near empty, but also added a trim tab at the same time. Not certain which was more instrumental in the actual corrective action, but at WOT the steering is neutral, in fact fairly neutral through all the rpm range. I did notice a bit less ventilation/cavitation when the trim tab is in place, so it remains for now. I will probably take an old one to modify as the current tab is new.
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I know for outboard they make a "Set back" tab.
Maybe one style/size of tab fits both I/O's and outboards ?
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You definitely don't need the tab with power steering...I ground my completely flat to fill the void. I would track straight as an arrow if you let go of the steering wheel a WOT...no pull either direction.
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Mine was removed on the 18 when I got it. No steering issues at speed. I found a blank filler plate in stock at West Marine. Guess the metal serves as an anode and will sacrifice its metal to electrolysis before the drive housing. Probably just a salt water concern anyhow, but it makes for a nice finished look.
http://www.westmarine.com/buy/mercury-marine--mercury-mercruiser-76214q5-new-style-flat-trim-tab-zinc-anode--4531372 (http://www.westmarine.com/buy/mercury-marine--mercury-mercruiser-76214q5-new-style-flat-trim-tab-zinc-anode--4531372)
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I found one in my collection of parts that is rather pitted, I think with some machining it could plug the hole and offer some cathodic protection. Also saves my new tab for the future. I may smooth it off and hope for the best steering wise. Thanks for the advice.
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I would think the open hole (when running without it) would cause some turbulence in the prop area?
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Instead of cutting the new tab, or doing the same with the old tab, I thought I would give the flat disk a try. Stole it(OK borrowed sounds better) from the timi, a quick clean up, and install. Put the new prop on, looking forward to see how it performs. Excited to feel how this prop has greater stern lift than a three blade. Might even have to lake test Saturday before river run.
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Whoops, sorry a pic would help.
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That's my set up too. Rev 4 prop and flat tab. No issues.
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It's a Mercury trophy, was on a 200hp OB Ranger bass boat. According to owner did 74mph. Smaller than the drive case on mine, but since I have no exhaust thru it, it should be OK. We shall know soon enough. BTW Jason, is your Rev 4 on your 23 I assume? Curious to know what pitch you running. My new one is 25p, same as the 3 blade, and I have found info that states I should go down 1 or 2 in pitch when going to four blade.
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I run a 4 bladed 22p Stiletto on my cvx16 with the v8. I also have a 3 bladed 23 as well (mercury vengence, similar to laser2). I have a 3 bladed 25p, but it makes the boat pretty doggy off the line and even though I've gotten the best speed out of it, my rpms aren't where I would like.
I'm interested to hear if your boat is still a wheelie machine now.
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Yep. On the 23. It's a 21p and took a year to find at an affordable price. Pretty happy with it so far.
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............ and I have found info that states I should go down 1 or 2 in pitch when going to four blade.
I have read that too, but later found out that many of the four blade props were 1/2" smaller diameter than the three bladed versions so that you didn't have to drop down a size in pitch?
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Guys! That looks nasty! I'm afraid to ride out in that stuff now! Anybody got fish/depth finders in their boats? Would that help much doing 20-30mph? Yikes! Sorry guys!
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Well I suppose I can call the repair and new prop a success. We went out with the local group to Cottonwood Cove marina on the Missouri River near Blair Nebraska. 26 river miles from NP dodge park. The skeg tracked true, seems to be even more responsive in turning than before, but I suppose that since it is larger, that may account for it. The flat disk that I borrowed from the Timi seems to be what the drive with power steering requires. I had no pull at any rpm either direction, always easy to turn both directions, which is supposed to be how it works by design right? The big news was the prop. The 4 blade 25p Mercury Trophy prop performed well, no ventilation or blowouts. Push the Z right up on plane every time. We had four large adults plus lots of gear so we were fairly heavy, no top speed runs, but did a fair 35mph at around 3400 rpm which made for a nice quiet smooth ride on the river. I hope to get it out on the lake soon and do some more testing without so much stuff on board. As for river runs, wing dams, and shallow water its been my experience that the depth finders are effective only when your floating or coming into the beach. There simply is no time to react while on plane. I will face the mighty Mississippi river again in the future, but plan to be better prepared. In the end it did cost a prop, but the 25p laser II that was on it was never that fantastic of performer anyway, and I was considering a four blade anyway. The skeg cost about $25.00 and add in some power, filler, Argon, paint/primer, with $200 prop so I consider it to be a costly mistake, but far more reasonable than if I took the Z into a marine repair shop and had the work done. Since it was successful, I will post a quick description of the skeg replacement process in the vendor/resources section. Thanks all for you advice and kind words of encouragement, helped me and the Z get through a rather dark time together.
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With the large yacht wakes, heavy traffic, buoy spacing and unknown river it's not hard to get out of the main channel.
Coming back from Pepin, just out of the lake, I got out of the marked channel twice (two years) and had to slowly head back to channel, guy in front of me wasn't as lucky and hit something one year.
I just hit dead heads now ... LOL
Happy to hear your prop/trim tab setup worked out ...
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Glad ya got her back together Mike!
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Sounds like some good came from the bad, with the discovery of a better prop. Way to go.
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Glad to hear it worked out better than what you started with. Next year can I get a ride in the CVX?
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Depends if the timi is done then, about 3 major projects ahead of it. Will likely have the cvz again next year, just have to see.
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about 3 major projects ahead of it.
Slacker ...
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That's awesome success in an unfortunate accident. Way to go