Minnesota Classic Glastron Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: buckz6319 on February 03, 2014, 06:14:36 PM
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HI
I had to give up on my 75 cv16 project, after much soul searching, and had to throw up the white flag, wave it all around...
I did purchase another boat that has a lot less to do, for it to be water ready, and my wife loves it, that makes me smile:)
1993 Chaparral 180 Sport Limited with a 3.0 Mercruiser, and Alpha one outdrive.The price was $ 1,300.00
The boat possibly will need an engine ( chocolate milk in the oil) however I am troubleshooting, and testing with the iboat folks, but would appreciate any input from you folks too... think it's a cracked block issue, or maybe the engine was under water at some point
here are some pics
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0201141525_zps61ec2dc7.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0202141605_zpsa8d29024.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/00S0S_4TcKhsMI4Ge_600x450_zps8cd7d0f1.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/00n0n_cmL9jNS5BOW_600x450_zps958c589e.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/00q0q_4KDhuX0bPpY_600x450_zps41a674e7.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/IMG959241_zps6fe94857.jpg)
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I think you got a great deal...I would have purchased it for that amount...Good find...
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I think you got a great deal...I would have purchased it for that amount...Good find...
thanks! I agree, however I don't know much about the brand, but it is a sold boat.
just not sure about the engine yet, hope I can save it
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Chaparral is definitely considered one of the better boats. It won't be a powerhouse with the 3.0 but pitch it down and should do fine. Those I4's are simple, easy to work on and run forever. I would agree you got it for a good price.
I would start by figuring out if freeze damage is the reason there is water in the oil. Which is pretty likely, but you never know. Could be something as simple as a head gasket.
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Chaparral is definitely considered one of the better boats. It won't be a powerhouse with the 3.0 but pitch it down and should do fine. Those I4's are simple, easy to work on and run forever. I would agree you got it for a good price.
I would start by figuring out if freeze damage is the reason there is water in the oil. Which is pretty likely, but you never know. Could be something as simple as a head gasket.
thanks!
I have always seen water n the cylinders when a head gasket lets go, but If the block froze, the head could have cracked allowing water into the oil
The engine will turn over, so it;s not seized up.I will do a pressure test of the block once I get the time, and it stops raining here
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Buck, pull the head on that 3.0 most likely a cracked head or block. I am going to build a 140 hopefully in the next month they are a very simple engine to work on. Oh, don't listen to these guys on here that say these i4s can't turn a high pitch prop. The 120 I had in my boat turned a 21p laser 2 and pushed it to 43mph.
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Buck, pull the head on that 3.0 most likely a cracked head or block. I am going to build a 140 hopefully in the next month they are a very simple engine to work on. Oh, don't listen to these guys on here that say these i4s can't turn a high pitch prop. The 120 I had in my boat turned a 21p laser 2 and pushed it to 43mph.
Hell, The speedo shows 80MPH. I was hoping to get 81MPH from her with some NOS lol
I would think you can build a 4 banger for more HP, just like a street 4 banger?
I don't think the stern drive could handle that kinda HP increase
I hope this 140 is not going to be a slug?
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Looks like a very good deal for $1300 !
Would a V6 fit in it ?
That would get it to 50 mph or better.
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Really nice deal. You can find 140's around here pretty easily. Not sure about down there. I don't think anyone would blame you for giving up on the CV16. That was a HUGE project and the less time working on the boat and the more time on the water the is what it is all about!
A 18' boat is a lot of boat to move with a 140. Top end speed is maybe 35..... But like kip said, find the right prop and it will be a fun boat...... Or find a 350 and make it a REALLY fun boat!
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A friend of mine has a Tahoe Q4 which is a 19 foot runabout and has a 3.0L Mercruiser. With a 21p stainless prop top speed was 45 mph at 4500 rpm with a light load. But with 4 people in the boat it took a long time to plane. In that case a 19p prop would probably work better to avoid overloading the engine.
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My '96 18ft Glastron could do low 40's with a 19p prop, but, that was just me, light fuel load, etc. (Boat speedo...so take that speed with a grain of salt.)
Ours did struggle to get on plane with 4 people towing the kids on the tube. We had a 17p Prop that I used for watersports, so it usually stayed on the boat.
It was a fun boat, and my family's favorite by far.
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you folks have me thinking now about putting in a different Engine
Is it possible to do without changing the Alpha One?
A v8 would be nice, but what would be involved in that?
A v6 should bolt right up?
Through hull exhaust sounds soooo good
Need ideas....
I would think either enging would have to be a marine engine ?
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The newer boats count the swim platform into the length of the boat so that is really like an older 16' boat or so. Chapparral is a well built boat from what I have seen. I think they built them down around Nashville. I had an 87 Sea Ray with the Mercruiser 140 and it would run mid-forties with no problem. That said, if you loaded it up with a bunch of people and a cooler it would get pretty sluggish. If you are talking about a generally light load such as two adults and younger kids you will probably be fine. Are you talking about young kids skiing or a 200 pounder trying to slalom ski? Mine was also great on fuel. I also liked how easy it was to winterize. I think it had two drain plugs and one hose to remove which took about five minutes to winterize it so I could use it all winter long if we got a warm day. I loved that 140 as long as you didn't try to ask it to do too much. Easy to trailer too.
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If it were me, I would just rebuild the 140 and enjoy the boat...it'll do 95% of what the V6 will, just work a little harder to do it...and its great on gas.
So it won't break 50...meh...if its for towing the kids around or just cruising...top speed is irrelevant.
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you folks have me thinking now about putting in a different Engine
Is it possible to do without changing the Alpha One?
A v8 would be nice, but what would be involved in that?
A v6 should bolt right up?
Through hull exhaust sounds soooo good
Need ideas....
I would think either enging would have to be a marine engine ?
A V6 would be ideal but you still would have to change the drive because of the gear ratio involved otherwise you would have to use a prop with an enormous amount of pitch. Things you would have to change to go from a 4 cylinder to a V6 would be the mentioned gear ratio, the exhaust pipe between the engine and transom, possible modification to go from a front motor mount to side mounts for the V6, and change the setting on the tachometer from 4 to 6 cylinders.
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I agree with Doran. Fix it and if you not happy with how it performs sell it and find something else. I don't know the boating market where you are but in MN if you fixed that boat yourself, you could easily sell it for a quite a bit more than you had into it. It really makes no sense IMHO to put a different motor in it. Your time & money and time ahead fixing it and then selling if you decide that is what you want to do.
My advice is to fix it, run it, and then make your own decision. You have gotten some good advice here on what to expect performance wise.
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Does the 3 liter show any signs of having overheated, melted exhaust bellows/ paint discolored etc? Are there any external cracks on the block? Red or Rich would know but isn't it unusual for a 3.0 to crack inside and not outside? If so more likely Head or manifold related?
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You scored a great deal. Just my suggestion, but I would start with a leakdown test of the cylinders. This test would tell you if the issue is with the cylinders, head gasket, valves, etc. The most likely, top two issues, from what kills engines around here are lack of winter prep(cracked block), and overheating(head gasket or cracked head. Spend the effort on fixing the 140 and enjoy the boat. If you do the work yourself, you could make more than you have invested, and spend that on a V6 or V8 boat (preferably a Carlson). Too much to change to make it V6 or V8 from an I4. My $0.02, Plugcheck.
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I would also keep it a 3.0. You would likely have to put in power steering with the V6 or V8 too.....I don't think it has it already.
Every 140 I have seen that cracked externally right under or behind the intake manifold. Do you really get that many temps dropping below zero down there. I would at least pull the engine apart and look for cracks befroe swapping it out. Most machine shops can pressure test heads and blocks.
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The newer boats count the swim platform into the length of the boat so that is really like an older 16' boat or so. Chapparral is a well built boat from what I have seen. I think they built them down around Nashville. I had an 87 Sea Ray with the Mercruiser 140 and it would run mid-forties with no problem. That said, if you loaded it up with a bunch of people and a cooler it would get pretty sluggish. If you are talking about a generally light load such as two adults and younger kids you will probably be fine. Are you talking about young kids skiing or a 200 pounder trying to slalom ski? Mine was also great on fuel. I also liked how easy it was to winterize. I think it had two drain plugs and one hose to remove which took about five minutes to winterize it so I could use it all winter long if we got a warm day. I loved that 140 as long as you didn't try to ask it to do too much. Easy to trailer too.
thanks for your input
I have read that these engines are built like a tank, and slow like one?
I mainly will be having my wife,and myself, most of the time, but can have 2 more adults sometimes, it will vary.
Why such a small 140 in a heavy boat, may have been just a base model ordered from the original owner
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I would also keep it a 3.0. You would likely have to put in power steering with the V6 or V8 too.....I don't think it has it already.
Every 140 I have seen that cracked externally right under or behind the intake manifold. Do you really get that many temps dropping below zero down there. I would at least pull the engine apart and look for cracks befroe swapping it out. Most machine shops can pressure test heads and blocks.
Thanks for your input
I think I do have power steering on this 3.0, that's a good thing
I has gotten so cold here the past couple of months, on and off, that the engine block or head could have possibly froze and busted. The winters here suck! and have huge temperature swings, along with wind
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If it were me, I would just rebuild the 140 and enjoy the boat...it'll do 95% of what the V6 will, just work a little harder to do it...and its great on gas.
So it won't break 50...meh...if its for towing the kids around or just cruising...top speed is irrelevant.
thanks for the input. I think probably a good idea...
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I agree with Doran. Fix it and if you not happy with how it performs sell it and find something else. I don't know the boating market where you are but in MN if you fixed that boat yourself, you could easily sell it for a quite a bit more than you had into it. It really makes no sense IMHO to put a different motor in it. Your time & money and time ahead fixing it and then selling if you decide that is what you want to do.
My advice is to fix it, run it, and then make your own decision. You have gotten some good advice here on what to expect performance wise.
I appreciate all the input, and consider everyone's opnion...sounds like a good idea too
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Does the 3 liter show any signs of having overheated, melted exhaust bellows/ paint discolored etc? Are there any external cracks on the block? Red or Rich would know but isn't it unusual for a 3.0 to crack inside and not outside? If so more likely Head or manifold related?
here are some engine pics, keep in mind that I have not removed these parts, nor did I use the stuff on the block, and manifold....the po tried to fix what they think was the issue, I guess
I did remove the rocker cover last night, so I could see if there were any fine hairline cracks in the casting, none found
let me know what you folks think
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0202140958a_zpsa69c28c2.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0202141010_zps9ff2e08d.jpg)
I used the trim/tilt it works, but also has wendys frosty coming out of the overflow hole in the cap
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0202140958_zps0b1fb5e5.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0202141012_zps3ea79071.jpg)
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Hmmmmmmm seems to me that trim fluid looks funny, Mercury fluid is basically clear.....years ago we used 30 weight motor oil......and sometimes people use transmission fluid even.......is there water in your resevoir? When you got the boat the manifold was off ? Are there any holes in the bellows?
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Why such a small 140 in a heavy boat, may have been just a base model ordered from the original owner
My large & heavy non-Glastron 21 foot cruiser came with a 3.0 liter 4 cylinder. Though it wouldn't be too fast it would be economical. I'm converting it to a V6 this winter. The 3.0 liter engine is common in most 18 foot runabouts so performance would be fine for cruising around and water sports.
Looking at your pics I'd say you have a problem with the exhaust/intake manifold, evident by the rust in the ports and possible repair to the manifold itself. It's probably ingesting water through cracks in the manifold.
There is water getting into the trim pump, the piston seals on the trim rams are no good. You'll either have to rebuild the rams with new end caps and O-rings or replace the rams.
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Hmmmmmmm seems to me that trim fluid looks funny, Mercury fluid is basically clear.....years ago we used 30 weight motor oil......and sometimes people use transmission fluid even.......is there water in your resevoir? When you got the boat the manifold was off ? Are there any holes in the bellows?
not sure about water in the reservoir. I think so, that pump fluid color, looks exactly the same as the wendys frosty color of the engine oil
Bellows? Holes? the inboard is new to me. I have always owned outboards, please explain
The manifold was off and laying in the engine compartment with the repair on it. I did find 2 used remaining tubes of jb weld in the engine compartment
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Why such a small 140 in a heavy boat, may have been just a base model ordered from the original owner
My large & heavy non-Glastron 21 foot cruiser came with a 3.0 liter 4 cylinder. Though it wouldn't be too fast it would be economical. I'm converting it to a V6 this winter. The 3.0 liter engine is common in most 18 foot runabouts so performance would be fine for cruising around and water sports.
Looking at your pics I'd say you have a problem with the exhaust/intake manifold, evident by the rust in the ports and possible repair to the manifold itself. It's probably ingesting water through cracks in the manifold.
There is water getting into the trim pump, the piston seals on the trim rams are no good. You'll either have to rebuild the rams with new end caps and O-rings or replace the rams.
so the intake manifold could allow water into the engine block? am new to the inboard engines
I tend to agree with you on rebuilding the rams with new end caps and o- rings, would that much water get into the system, causing the chocolate fluid, do you thnk the pump can be salvaged. t does work
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so the intake manifold could allow water into the engine block? am new to the inboard engines
I tend to agree with you on rebuilding the rams with new end caps and o- rings, would that much water get into the system, causing the chocolate fluid, do you thnk the pump can be salvaged. t does work
Yes, if there are cracks in the manifold you can get water sucking into the cylinders. If the exhaust outlet elbow's water passages are all plugged up with rust and scale that could create a greater water pressure flowing through the manifold causing it to leak, especially at the joint between the manifold and elbow if the gasket seal is shot or the mating surfaces are rotted.
On the rams, yes that much water can get into the trim pump. Each time the drive is lowered it could suck water in through the end caps on the rams. This is why your trim pump reservoir is overflowing. The pump can be saved as long as the check valves haven't rusted shut. Empty the reservoir and flush it with some diesel, cycle the pump a few times back and forth with the hoses removed to clear out the pump body. The hoses and rams will also need to be flushed to get all the watery oil out.
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Looks like the block is cracked externally right where Jason said they do.
I would inspect the drive fluid right away. Hopefully that isn't full of water. If it looks good chances are the drive is functional.
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Looks like the block is cracked as well.
I would inspect the drive fluid right away. Hopefully that isn't full of water. If it looks good chances are the drive is functional.
i did drain that fluid out Sunday. I was curious....mostly dark bluish black oil, but did see a trace of chocolate, but the vent screw, and the drain screw o-rings were completely flat, so maybe was leaking some at those 2 screws
oil looked nothing like what is in the pump and engine
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Well, thanks for all the great info, and troubleshooting tips. I have some investigating to do, so i can figure out what is wrong.
Feel free to keep the input coming, and will post my test results as i do them. hope it is not the block that is the problem. I will take a compression test of each cyl, and do a cyl leak down test on each one. will try and do a block pressure test, inspect the intake more closely, and I for got what else at this point
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thought I would post some pics of the starboard side spark plug holes
they all have rust, even the hex on the plugs had rust on them
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0204142108a_zpsb525058f.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0204142109_zpsee7b0107.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0204142109a_zps74adceba.jpg)
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Sure it was not submerged?
I am thinking Rich is on the right track with the intake as the rust in the intake ports is a giveaway there.
I can see some JB weld on the block but don't really see a crack. Here is a cracked 140.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t124/lincolnman1969/IMG_0061-1.jpg) (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/lincolnman1969/media/IMG_0061-1.jpg.html)
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I would think you could pressure test the intake by sealing a flat plate to the large square exhaust opening then connect a garden hose to the hose connection on the opposite end and look for water coming out of any area as it should be sealed at that point. I would try and bleed the air out by filling with water first.
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thanks for the time to help me figure this out. I will pressure test the manifold, and hope it is the culprit causing the water intrusion, and not a busted block
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There are three Bellows that seal the shift cable, drive shaft and exhaust between the outdrive and the Bell housing outside the boat. If the shift or drive shaft (U-joint) bellows are torn water will enter the boat.......common cause of sinking.......With that manifold looking like it does you gotta question it.
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There are three Bellows that seal the shift cable, drive shaft and exhaust between the outdrive and the Bell housing outside the boat. If the shift or drive shaft (U-joint) bellows are torn water will enter the boat.......common cause of sinking.......With that manifold looking like it does you gotta question it.
ok, I will do a google search on the bellows for this 93 3.0 and look into how to check them
I am posting more pics, these are of the manifold and gasket that was removed by the po
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The pics of the intake manifold, and gasket. I see lots of rust, and damage on the gasket.
The damaged gasket may have been caused by removing the intake?. I have had that happen on a few auto engine intake removals
The rust possibly from sitting outside?
I would appreciate any input, and advice on what you all think about these parts
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0205141942a_zps7919c83e.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0205141941b_zpsb12f2ff5.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0205141941a_zpsf2bbc1f7.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0205141945_zpsf0588358.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0205141951c_zpsf2e23257.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0205141953b_zpsf92cd873.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0205141953c_zpsdb7f14f0.jpg)
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Sure it was not submerged?
I am thinking Rich is on the right track with the intake as the rust in the intake ports is a giveaway there.
I can see some JB weld on the block but don't really see a crack. Here is a cracked 140.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t124/lincolnman1969/IMG_0061-1.jpg) (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/lincolnman1969/media/IMG_0061-1.jpg.html)
Sure it was not submerged?....that could be a possibility, and I have thought about that, not sure how i could know?
The po said, and i quote " using it on the lake, sounded like the engine was skipping, when we got home, checked oil, had water in it,he then took the intake off to look at it. I didn't notice anything wrong, was having someone come look at the problem, but no one came"
last Ga registration year expiration date was 2012
so it must have sat in this disassembled state for a long time
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Does the engine turn over? You wanna be sure it's not rusted up solid. Spray some penetrating oil or Marvel Mystery into each spark plug hole and rotate the crank over to spread it around or let it soak if she's locked up.
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Does the engine turn over? You wanna be sure it's not rusted up solid. Spray some penetrating oil or Marvel Mystery into each spark plug hole and rotate the crank over to spread it around or let it soak if she's locked up.
engine turns over, no problem.I do have the plugs out and looked inside the cylinders, don't see any rust
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Any sign of water in one or more cylinders? If three pistons have carbon on top and one is clean maybe water is entering that one and steam cleaning the piston top. You could put the manifold back on and run it (after an oil change) and see if oil (oil/water) volume increases in crankcase. On Mercruisers diagnostic chart for water intrusion I think the first step is to determine if water is in crankcase only or crankcase and combustion chamber. You would answer this by running it as well.
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Wonder if i can reuse that old manifold gasket, and put it back together, like you said
See if it will run
Maybe i will try that saturday morning
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you can use that gasket just to see if it will run. It's only sealing air.
I wonder if when it started skipping if it was the first run of the season or middle of season. If it was not the first run it may not have froze.
Yea, start it up and see what happens.
I doubt bad bellows would cause water to get in engine. If it was the gimbal or shift below that would get water in boat but not engine. If it were the exhaust below....well....we all know you don't even need that one at all.
Maybe it simply overheated and blew a head gasket.
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I would at least use a new manifold gasket because it's a combination intake/exhaust seal, I don't think they're very expensive. Take compression readings of the cylinders. I had a friend with a 3.0 that had no compression on the #4 cylinder and was getting water in the oil. We pulled the head and it turned out to just be a bad head gasket. He had the head reconditioned and we put it back together with a new head gasket and changed the oil and it ran fine.
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If bad bellows /submerged while running water can get sucked in the rear main if water is deep enough I think. Should use a new gasket.....attached.......Bellows....first photo is Gimble housing(part that fills hole in transom.....second photo is bell housing with bellows still attached (end of bellows not attached goes on gimble housing) maybe can see flanges in photo? Third photo basically how they look assembled (no gimble ring) (steering) in photo.
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couple cracked intakes......Note that these are both from v6 GMs
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I would at least use a new manifold gasket because it's a combination intake/exhaust seal, I don't think they're very expensive. Take compression readings of the cylinders. I had a friend with a 3.0 that had no compression on the #4 cylinder and was getting water in the oil. We pulled the head and it turned out to just be a bad head gasket. He had the head reconditioned and we put it back together with a new head gasket and changed the oil and it ran fine.
would love to use a new gasket, however too late to order one now. I want to try to see if I can get it to run this weekend
I will do a compression test also, and I can do a cylinder leak down test also if I need to
pray that it is just a head gasket. I have some go bad on auto engines, and had windys frosty in the engine oil
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If bad bellows /submerged while running water can get sucked in the rear main if water is deep enough I think. Should use a new gasket.....attached.......Bellows....first photo is Gimble housing(part that fills hole in transom.....second photo is bell housing with bellows still attached (end of bellows not attached goes on gimble housing) maybe can see flanges in photo? Third photo basically how they look assembled (no gimble ring) (steering) in photo.
thanks for the input and pics, will look at the bellows, while I am in the engine compartment, I did look last night with a high powered flashlight, and saw no holes in the bellows, but you never know
thanks
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couple cracked intakes......Note that these are both from v6 GMs
Wow! these are from freezing?
hope my engine block did not do that internally
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Yes freeze damage.....
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Have you looked under the distributor cap? Is it green under there?
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Have you looked under the distributor cap? Is it green under there?
I really havent had s chance to do a whole lot to the boat yet, just brought her home last Saturday. It rained Sunday, and i work a full time job, dont get home until after 6:00 pm, by that time it starts getting dark, and its been raining, snowing, ect here
So i plan on doing as many things i can tomorrow, one will be removing that dizzy cap among other things
I am looking forward to working on it :)
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I'm assuming you've seen this ad:
http://loz.craigslist.org/boa/4317266179.html (http://loz.craigslist.org/boa/4317266179.html)
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I'm assuming you've seen this ad:
http://loz.craigslist.org/boa/4317266179.html (http://loz.craigslist.org/boa/4317266179.html)
No i have not, probably has a cracked block lol
I am broke, for now..,
Thanks for the heads up on that setup :)
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update my test today
I just tried to pressure test the block, and i used about 15 psi, the block built pressure quick then....
I heard a "Pop! " then gurgling,
Sounds like i broke something, or blew out something,and lost air pressure
so...I went from an air test to a water pressure test...
I did a water test on the engine block, and have water pouring out below the bell housing, and below the starter, on the rear of the engine block
But not in the engine oil pan( i have the oil pan drain plug removed), it is dry, no water coming out there
So did i blow out a hose, or is it a busted block at the rear
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There is a "frost" plug on the rear of the block I think..........you would need to remove the flywheel to see it I think..........Where were you putting the 15 psi in? How did you block all possible escape points for the air?
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Is the motor out of the boat or still in?
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Is the motor out of the boat or still in?
still in the boat. I think I now need to remove it, didn't want to, but have no choice
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There is a "frost" plug on the rear of the block I think..........you would need to remove the flywheel to see it I think..........Where were you putting the 15 psi in? How did you block all possible escape points for the air?
here is a pic of how I used air pressure to test the block
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0208141203_zps945b74d5.jpg)
to use water to pressure test the block. I removed the power steering cooler and hoses, then just used the two top t-stat hoses, hooked up a garden hose to the top hose, and blocked off the bottom t-stat hose, turned on the water at a low pressuer. It took a while for the water to run through the block, and then out the back of the engine
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Well...........when you pull the motor (the Outdrive) at least you will be able to see if the Bellows have water in them. Of course if it came from inside or outside the boat is another question.
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Well...........when you pull the motor (the Outdrive) at least you will be able to see if the Bellows have water in them. Of course if it came from inside or outside the boat is another question.
here is a pic for the answer your question " is there water in the bellows?" Gimbal bearing is going to have to be replaced, haven't checked for a crack in the bellows, but water was in it, not sure how it got there?
on a positive note, if I can call it that...I check the compression on each cyl today
#1- 180 #2-178 #3- 175 #4-178
i will do a cyl leak test today time permitting
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0209141040_zps064232e0.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0209141122_zps9d128169.jpg)
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That bearing definitely needs replacing. Looks like more than just water in those bellows, like gear oil too. Your upper yoke seal looks like it may be leaking. I've replaced a lot of those but sometimes you have to replace the short yoke between the 1st U-joint cross and pinion drive gear. The reason being is a slight groove gets worn in the face of the yoke where the seal rides on it, and once a groove is formed it will continue to leak even with a new seal in the carrier assembly.
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Can you get a spedi-sleeve for it?
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This would be what I'm talking about, should it need replacing. Called a short yoke. They're not too expensive, between $65 and $120 depending on the model and who's you buy. The clean machined surface around the perimeter is where the oil seal rides against. I replaced a couple of them for customers last summer because gear oil was leaking out of the drive when under heat expansion from usage, filling up the bellows and leaking into the boat through the gimbal bearing. Takes a special tool to remove the carrier retainer (which I have) and you have to be careful not to misplace the gear shims inside the carrier assembly cavity. A drive manual helps with disassembly and reassembly.
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This would be what I'm talking about, should it need replacing. Called a short yoke. They're not too expensive, between $65 and $120 depending on the model and who's you buy. The clean machined surface around the perimeter is where the oil seal rides against. I replaced a couple of them for customers last summer because gear oil was leaking out of the drive when under heat expansion from usage, filling up the bellows and leaking into the boat through the gimbal bearing. Takes a special tool to remove the carrier retainer (which I have) and you have to be careful not to misplace the gear shims inside the carrier assembly cavity. A drive manual helps with disassembly and reassembly.
thanks Rich for the informative information, sounds like you have worked on a few pieces of marine equipment?
I am just learning as I go with these marine engines, and out drives.
I do have many years of mechanical experience, but I'm just a diy'er not certified in any thing other than having a license to conduct Commercial, and Residential Structural inspections for the county that I work for.
I do appreciate all the advice, and opinions that helps me move in the forward direction on this new project. I feel that even though I got great deal on the boat, don't think I got the full story on the engine problems.
I am sure that I will continue to have more questions as I move along....
I appreciate all the input from all
thanks!
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Just to let everyone know
I have removed all the necessary items in the engine compartment, and are ready to pull the engine.
I assume that I can pull it with the bell housing attached, or does it need to be removed?
It looks like once I hook up to the block lifting hooks (only 2 on the front) , and start lifting, the engine will move forward so the tail shaft will clear that bracket
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Below is a video of me pulling a 3.0 engine out of my own winter project boat. Mine was an OMC setup as opposed to Mercruiser but the method of removal is the same. There should be 2 hoist points on the engine, one at the front behind the thermostat housing and hopefully one on the rear of the engine. Mine didn't have a rear hoist point so I used the exhaust elbow instead. If you don't have a rear hoist point you can put a bolt through a chain link on the rear of the cylinder head or flywheel housing. Once the two rear engine mount bolts and front mount bolts are removed the engine should lift straight up and out, provided everything else is disconnected. You don't need to remove the flywheel housing. Since you already pulled the drive the rear of the engine is free to hoist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl1EyXHvMVY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl1EyXHvMVY)
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Below is a video of me pulling a 3.0 engine out of my own winter project boat. Mine was an OMC setup as opposed to Mercruiser but the method of removal is the same. There should be 2 hoist points on the engine, one at the front behind the thermostat housing and hopefully one on the rear of the engine. Mine didn't have a rear hoist point so I used the exhaust elbow instead. If you don't have a rear hoist point you can put a bolt through a chain link on the rear of the cylinder head or flywheel housing. Once the two rear engine mount bolts and front mount bolts are removed the engine should lift straight up and out, provided everything else is disconnected. You don't need to remove the flywheel housing. Since you already pulled the drive the rear of the engine is free to hoist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl1EyXHvMVY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl1EyXHvMVY)
thanks! I just watched it, however it looked like you don't have power steering?
I have a power steering bracket that is bolted to the transom, and the rear engine 2 engine mounts sit, and bolt down on top of it. I wonder if I can still lift that engine, with that bracket still attached
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/2014-02-09-16-53-54_zpsd8074996.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0209141451a_zpsa0146d65.jpg)
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It doesn't matter if you have power steering or not with your setup. Your engine will clear the inner transom bracket assembly and the power steering cylinder will remain right where it is. Just be careful not to break that white plastic water hose connector. You'll have to jimmy the engine forward a little to clear the drive shaft coupler away from the transom bracket.
This is what it will look like when the engine is removed. Everything attached to the transom stays in place:
(http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/Rattan3973/V174%20Floor%20Construction/Bilge%20and%20Floor/IMG_0033.jpg)
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It doesn't matter if you have power steering or not with your setup. Your engine will clear the inner transom bracket assembly and the power steering cylinder will remain right where it is. Just be careful not to break that white plastic water hose connector. You'll have to jimmy the engine forward a little to clear the drive shaft coupler away from the transom bracket.
This is what it will look like when the engine is removed. Everything attached to the transom stays in place:
(http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/Rattan3973/V174%20Floor%20Construction/Bilge%20and%20Floor/IMG_0033.jpg)
thanks, got you
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That picture was from when I rebuilt my '67 V174 Crestflite a few years ago, before putting the replacement engine in.
If you lack the room to shuffle your engine forward you'll probably have to pull it out at an angle, front end high, but you still should use a chain on the rear to control the movement. Below are pics from when I installed the new engine. It's a bit bigger then the 2.5 liter engine that came out. This one was 3.7 liters but still a 4 cylinder. I had to make a few modifications to the boat because the engine was about 6 inches longer front-to-back from the original engine.
(http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/Rattan3973/V174%20Floor%20Construction/Engine%20Installation/IMG_0118.jpg)
(http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/Rattan3973/V174%20Floor%20Construction/Engine%20Installation/IMG_0121.jpg)
(http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/Rattan3973/V174%20Floor%20Construction/Engine%20Installation/IMG_0123.jpg)
(http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/Rattan3973/V174%20Floor%20Construction/Engine%20Installation/IMG_0126.jpg)
(http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/Rattan3973/V174%20Floor%20Construction/Finishing%20Touches/IMG_0669.jpg)
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That picture was from when I rebuilt my '67 V174 Crestflite a few years ago, before putting the replacement engine in.
If you lack the room to shuffle your engine forward you'll probably have to pull it out at an angle, front end high, but you still should use a chain on the rear to control the movement. Below are pics from when I installed the new engine. It's a bit bigger then the 2.5 liter engine that came out. This one was 3.7 liters but still a 4 cylinder. I had to make a few modifications to the boat because the engine was about 6 inches longer front-to-back from the original engine.
(http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/Rattan3973/V174%20Floor%20Construction/Engine%20Installation/IMG_0118.jpg)
(http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/Rattan3973/V174%20Floor%20Construction/Engine%20Installation/IMG_0121.jpg)
(http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/Rattan3973/V174%20Floor%20Construction/Engine%20Installation/IMG_0123.jpg)
(http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/Rattan3973/V174%20Floor%20Construction/Engine%20Installation/IMG_0126.jpg)
(http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp340/Rattan3973/V174%20Floor%20Construction/Finishing%20Touches/IMG_0669.jpg)
Nice Job! thanks for sharing, that engine bay looks really clean!
my boat is so high from ground to engine bay. I may have to build some kinda platform to sit the hoist on, I will have to figure out something
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Nice Job! thanks for sharing, that engine bay looks really clean!
my boat is so high from ground to engine bay. I may have to build some kinda platform to sit the hoist on, I will have to figure out something
Thanks.
If you're using a shop hoist that rolls on the ground I think you'll have a problem getting the engine up and over the stern of the boat. A chain hoist mounted to a beam or gantry would be the way to go. Maybe a car service station will let you use a service bay. ??
I also notice from your pics your engine is right up against the rear seat, leaving very little room to maneuver the engine around. What I've done in those cases was to remove the seat back from the boat and screw it back in later when all the work is done.
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Rich is THE MAN! We would be lost without him!
Build one of these like Brandon did. Otherwise, a REALLY strong tree branch would work too. I would guess that motor weighs around 300lbs. You can also lift the front of the trailer way up to lower the back end if that helps.
(http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i387/ban-one_1/Phoenix%20Rising%20Rebuild/1009121110.jpg)
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thanks for the tips Rich & Jason
I think I have an Idea...I do have the other boat trailer that I can use for some sort of platform. I plan on making that into a flatbed trailed, and then maybe put the shop hoist on top of it.I will anchored it to the floor, once in the correct position.
I think if I lift the bow of the trailer that has the boat , to the highest point just above grade, I then think maybe I can make this happen.
I will let you folks know if that works out
not sure if this engine is going to be worth checking out, but I am trying :)
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What do you all think about the u- joints?
should I replace when the time comes?
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If they move smoothly without any binding and without excess play then they should be fine to leave them alone. The only time I've had replaced them is if they were excessively rusty and frozen up.
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If they move smoothly without any binding and without excess play then they should be fine to leave them alone. The only time I've had replaced them is if they were excessively rusty and frozen up.
I may have gotten lucky with the u-joints, they move smooth...
but maybe not so much luck on this engine.
I will do a cylinder leak down test once I get the engine out, and set up. I know that this test will not show an internal crack in the water jacket of the block, but it will alert me to a possible head gasket failure, or valve issues. I haven't seen any hair line cracks on top of the head casting, but don't know what lurks on the piston side
I can recheck the block for cracks in the water jackets, once I install the rear casting plug that blew out. I don't want to get into this engine too much if it is a bad block, but I want to check everything possible, before I call it DOA
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pulling the engine today:)
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got the engine out! It was a chore by myself, as always. I will start my investigation tomorrow on a possible internal cracked block
here are some pics
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0215141320_zps645b0c87.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0215141331_zpsc4de55f4.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0215141331b_zpsf98440fd.jpg)
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That must have been a tight squeeze getting that out with the back seat still in the boat.
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Nice you were able to use a cherry picker to get it put. Keep us updated!
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more pics, I'm calling it a day!...and yes, it was a tight squeeze getting that engine out, but once I got it turned sideways, it was no problem
I have found that blowed out plug, still keeping my fingers crossed that the block is not cracked internally. I will keep moving forward...wonder if I can pop that plug back it, so I can do that pressure test on the cooling system
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0215141447_zpse85d2638.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0215141526_zps058d2cc3.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0215141526b_zpse2ccf8ee.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0215141526b_zpse2ccf8ee.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0215141611_zpscf05ff40.jpg)
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That was kinda risky using the oil pressure sender as a hoist point, I wouldn't have trusted that but I guess it worked. Also looks like one of your starter bolts is hanging out of the block. For the freeze plug I would get a new one and tap it in with some pipe sealant. Looks like they use brass plugs for marine environment.
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That was kinda risky using the oil pressure sender as a hoist point, I wouldn't have trusted that but I guess it worked. Also looks like one of your starter bolts is hanging out of the block. For the freeze plug I would get a new one and tap it in with some pipe sealant. Looks like they use brass plugs for marine environment.
good eye, that chain is just hanging there, not attached to that oil pressure sending bolt ;) I know better than that lol
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good eye, that chain is just hanging there, not attached to that oil pressure sending bolt ;) I know better than that lol
Got it! ;D
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Nice buck looks good
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
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I'm envious that its nice enough to work outdoors where your at. Looks like your project is progressing nicely. Looks like you have the skills and equipment to get the job done.
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I'm envious that its nice enough to work outdoors where your at. Looks like your project is progressing nicely. Looks like you have the skills and equipment to get the job done.
It was beautiful in Omaha today!!!
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I'm envious that its nice enough to work outdoors where your at. Looks like your project is progressing nicely. Looks like you have the skills and equipment to get the job done.
it was sunny outside yesterday, but cold. I can say that I enjoyed every minute of working on this project
My skill level always improves with great, correct, advice for folks that are willing to give it. I have been wrenching for a long time, but, "if your not willing to learn from someone else who has BTDT, then all you know how to do is hold a wrench...."
I do have a lot of equipment, and tools, to get most jobs completed that do for customers, however the tools that are needed for working on this engine, are outrageous in price. I will be asking a lot of questions about these so called " Special tools"
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just as some expected, rear core plug aka " Frost, Freeze Plug" was pushed out the rear of the engine block, looks like it is in good shape. I may re install temporarily just so I pressure test the block cooling passages
opinions appreciated
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0215141554_zps334dfd95.jpg)
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They make an expandable frost plug you put in and tighten.
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update!
I did some more troubleshooting today...
The core plug looked really good ( will purchase a new one), but I cleaned the edge of the brass core plug aka "freeze plug" with my buffer, and cleaned up the rust that was around inside rim of the core hole in the block.
I then re-installed the core plug back into the core hole in the block,( *****just temporary, so I can air pressure test the block*****) using some gasket sealer on the edge of the freeze plug.
I then setup to air pressure test the cooling passages in the block...with oil pan drain plug removed
I hooked up my hoses, clamps, pressure gauge, ect, induced 20psi into the cooling system. I immediately saw the pressure gauge start to drop by lb , "Oh crap!!! maybe I had an internal cracked block", I really said a few choice words, other than " Oh Crap" .
I then got my bottle of soapy water, re- pressurized the system again to 20psi, and started spraying all my hose connections that had clamps. as the pressure was dropping I located some major leaks around the hoses, so I tightened up the clamps some more.
I got all the clamps tightened, sprayed soapy water on them again, no more bubbles
I induced 20psi again into the cooling system......it held pressure for 2+hours, maybe even longer. I did not unhook the air until I got up all my stuff that I had strolled all over the place today. The last thing I put up was that air hose probably about 35 more minutes later
so IMO I feel like my block does not have a crack...that is IMO on the block only
my next test will be a cylinder leak down compression test
I would appreciate opinions good or bad, they all help
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That bearing definitely needs replacing. Looks like more than just water in those bellows, like gear oil too. Your upper yoke seal looks like it may be leaking. I've replaced a lot of those but sometimes you have to replace the short yoke between the 1st U-joint cross and pinion drive gear. The reason being is a slight groove gets worn in the face of the yoke where the seal rides on it, and once a groove is formed it will continue to leak even with a new seal in the carrier assembly.
just thinking about the water in the u-joint bellows
after examining all that I could see of the bellows, they have no dry rot, no holes, clamps are tight but not over tightened., in the correct position per the FSM. I feel like the water I found in the bellows, may have come from inside the boat, is this possible? I was thinking maybe, because of that leaking rear freeze plug, and possible leaking intake manifold
here are the pics again
I can also say that the nuts on the alpha one gen 2 were not even torqued, just finger tight, and the gasket was on the back of the drive, not on the gimble housing, hope this makes sense...any thoughts on this?
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0209141040a_zps28ef970a.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0215141554_zps334dfd95.jpg)
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For water to enter the bellows from in the boat half the engine would need to be underwater. It's not possible for water to transfer from the engine through the transom assembly, there's just too much if a space to traverse. Are you sure that's all water in the bellows? I still say that's gear oil from the drive. Test it by pouring some into a cup of water. If it floats on top it's oil, if it blends then it's water. Also, if it was water there would be more rust on the U-joints.
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the gasket was on the back of the drive, not on the gimble housing, hope this makes sense
Not really. I'm confused by this one.
Hmmmm......
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You might have possible things going on. First you obviously had freeze damage because that frost plug popped. You are lucky there. Seems like GM frost plugs usually don't pop and the block cracked. Even though the plug popped it does not mean you don't have any cracks. Could it be that it holds pressure when cold but once the engine warms up the crack opens up. Somehow water got in the oil. If the blocks really not cracked and holds pressure then it has to be a head gasket. Did you pressure test the intake/exhaust manifold yet? If that tests ok, pull head, have flatness checked. Put in head gasket. Put back together and fire it up and see what happens. I wouldn't worry about the milky oil in the bellows just yet. Figure out the engine first.
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You might have possible things going on. First you obviously had freeze damage because that frost plug popped. You are lucky there. Seems like GM frost plugs usually don't pop and the block cracked. Even though the plug popped it does not mean you don't have any cracks. Could it be that it holds pressure when cold but once the engine warms up the crack opens up. Somehow water got in the oil. If the blocks really not cracked and holds pressure then it has to be a head gasket. Did you pressure test the intake/exhaust manifold yet? If that tests ok, pull head, have flatness checked. Put in head gasket. Put back together and fire it up and see what happens. I wouldn't worry about the milky oil in the bellows just yet. Figure out the engine first.
I agree, i'm not out of the woods yet. I do understand that heat may open a internal engine block crack.
I have not tested the intake yet, that will be this week hopefully
Any suggestions on how to properly do that test?
If it test bad, i will replace it, if it test good, i will do a cylinder compression test, and go from there
Thanks
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I'm with Jason. If you have poo-poo oil you have a problem. Pull the head and pan and look at it. Most cracks are visible.
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the gasket was on the back of the drive, not on the gimble housing, hope this makes sense
Not really. I'm confused by this one.
Hmmmm......
sorry, Gimbal Bearing and Outdrive Mounting Gasket. The red line on the gasket, is what I was questioning.I removed my outdrive, and noticed the red line on what appears to be a new gasket, was turned around, facing the the other way
not sure if it is going to be an issue
here is a pic of what I was talking about
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0216142116_zpsaf48bb3a.jpg)
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Oh I see. If you don't have the oil fitting between the two upper right mounting studs then it wouldn't have mattered much. The older gaskets used before the 90's didn't even have the orange sealing line on them. There is also a rubber O-Ring inside the bell housing that seals the bellows area. When you get a gasket kit for the mounting bell you get new O-rings as well.
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well, I still have more testing to do, to further confirm that I don't have a internal cracked block. I know that if the engine was warmed to normal operating temperature,I may have had an internal leak, now that I did the air pressure test on a dead cold engine, my results may not be true, from what I understand...
I will update when I can truly confirm that I have no internal cracked block, then I will move in the direction I need to go with this 3.0
I will pull the pan, and check for internal cracks inside the block. I will pull the head and inspect gasket, and head surface, and test the intake manifold, and report back. This will take some time to do... may still ask a few question as I go along, if that will still be ok...
thanks all for the advice.I appreciate it, more than you know..
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In order to determine where the water comes from maybe you could change the oil and filter and run the motor.......see if it gets into the combustion chambers......or the crankcase...or both......also then you would know if the motor is really "making" oil or if it came from an outside source such as water in boat deep enough to enter rear main seal or dipstick tube. If that happened it likely would be in the bellows also. I think the first step in the Mercruiser diagnostic chain on water intrusion is to find out if it is in the combustion chambers or the crankcase or both.
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Test intake first...,, just make the most sense to me
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In order to determine where the water comes from maybe you could change the oil and filter and run the motor.......see if it gets into the combustion chambers......or the crankcase...or both......also then you would know if the motor is really "making" oil or if it came from an outside source such as water in boat deep enough to enter rear main seal or dipstick tube. If that happened it likely would be in the bellows also. I think the first step in the Mercruiser diagnostic chain on water intrusion is to find out if it is in the combustion chambers or the crankcase or both.
I have thought about that....I would have to rig some electrical up though, not sure how to wire that coil
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I need to order that brass freeze plug, anyone have one for sale?
not sure what size it is, or where to order it from
any help will be appreciated:)
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You should be able to get it from any Mercruiser dealer, most engine rebuilders, you could order it from Hannays Marine, I am pretty sure sierra offers them and you could use the GCOAMN discount and have it shipped to your door.
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There were several ignition systems for the 3.0 I think......looks like you have the "EST" ignition.....the others were conventional (points) or Digital (distributorless) I think. If you can confirm I wll scan the wiring and post it.....right now I am unable to scan but Mrs Retro is working on correcting that. Now that the motor is out you could look in the exhaust pipe and see if the shutter (one way valve to allow exhaust out/keep water from coming in thru exhaust) is melted.........unlikely water would enter there even if melted but a heavy overheat might have damaged the head gasket.............I think that is all correct but my memory is as old as me so please someone correct if needed. I looked up the part number for that plug today but forgot to bring it home. I will try to remember tomorrow.
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I did some more digging this evening, in the dark. I seem to see things better in the dark with a 1000 lumen light sometimes, more so than in the daylight.
I was looking into the intake ports of the head, looking at the valves. I saw what looked like a light coating of oil on top of two intake valves. I believe them to be #2 & #3 cylinders, all other valves are dry, including the exhaust valves...so I wonder why the #2 #3 have that oil on them....any thoughts on this?
here is a pic of the 2 intake valves I am referring to
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0218142046a_zps735365fa.jpg)
different angle, same 2 valves
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0218142046_zpsb5a875d5.jpg)
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There were several ignition systems for the 3.0 I think......looks like you have the "EST" ignition.....the others were conventional (points) or Digital (distributorless) I think. If you can confirm I wll scan the wiring and post it.....right now I am unable to scan but Mrs Retro is working on correcting that. Now that the motor is out you could look in the exhaust pipe and see if the shutter (one way valve to allow exhaust out/keep water from coming in thru exhaust) is melted.........unlikely water would enter there even if melted but a heavy overheat might have damaged the head gasket.............I think that is all correct but my memory is as old as me so please someone correct if needed. I looked up the part number for that plug today but forgot to bring it home. I will try to remember tomorrow.
thank you for the help , I appreciate it
will check that ignition system, but think you are correct. I will have to do some searching.
Exhaust pipe shutter, does this have one? I thought only through hull exhaust have them?...If I have one, I surely will look at it for ya, no problem.
I agree that a heavy overheat would cause a damaged head gasket, BTDT on so many engines....it is still possible that this engine may have overheated...I bought it with the intake removed, and gasket laying around in the engine bay, the bolts on the stern drive were loose, ect, ect....so I really don't know what I have here, it is possible that it could be one of Aunt Bea's Pickles lol
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There were several ignition systems for the 3.0 I think......looks like you have the "EST" ignition.....the others were conventional (points) or Digital (distributorless) I think. If you can confirm I wll scan the wiring and post
I have a downloaded manual that I got off the internet a day or two ago, and found these sections, is this what you were going to scan for me?
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0218142122_zps2d7e0648.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0218142124_zps5afd6f20.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0218142124a_zps4b59b96b.jpg)
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I was going to scan wire color to pins.......Maybe valve guide seals?........Red or Rich will know...... or You could call Mercruiser consumer technical assistance in Stillwater Oklahoma check your manuel....should have shutter in pipe I think.
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The wire color to pin location is in publication number 90-816462 on page 1c-10 under troubleshooting. Hope that is helpfull...........Aunt Beas Pickles? I believe those were also known as "Kerosene Cucumbers".......I think that is what Barney called them. LOL
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The wire color to pin location is in publication number 90-816462 on page 1c-10 under troubleshooting. Hope that is helpfull...........Aunt Beas Pickles? I believe those were also known as "Kerosene Cucumbers".......I think that is what Barney called them. LOL
thanks for the help, I appreciate it....and will look that up
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update!
I got the head off this evening, after letting the head bolts soak in penetrating oil over night. I had two bolts that were rusted bad on the external threads, and shaft. it took a while to get them loose with an 1/2" air impact
Then I had to use a blade to wedge between the head, and block just to break it free from the block
I will be checking the head, and block cylinder walls for internal cracks. If i find none, I will then flip the block, and remove the pan, then check for internal cracks
I would appreciate any opinions on what the head, and block, thanks!
sorry for the huge pics, and it got dark on me again...
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0220141850c_zps0507eb61.jpg)
this pic I outlined in red where I had to use a scrape to wedge between the head, and block to separate the two
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/2014-02-20-19-08-56_zpsddc43ab6.jpg)
Here is the block
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0220141851c_zpsd7ed4279.jpg)
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That's from pryiing the head off, it's not a leak
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That's from pryiing the head off, it's not a leak
Jerry,
I had to use a gasket scraper, and lightly hammer it between the block, and head, just to get the head separated.
I thought that i may have done that damage. I will look again this evening. it was getting dark on me, and about to rain again
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On that engine if water was going to get into a cylinder from a bad head gasket it would be at the back in the #4 cylinder because that's where the water passage is. I don't believe there are any other water channels between head and block. To me that head gasket looks (looked) fine and there's no rust in the cylinders or on the valves. It may have been running a bit rich, indicated by some black carbon deposits, or you might have some slight wear in a few of the valve guides causing some oil consumption. Perhaps the engine was under water leading to water in the oil. What condition was the starter in? Was it rusted up? Was it replaced with a new one? A rusted up starter is an indication that it got wet at some point.
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On that engine if water was going to get into a cylinder from a bad head gasket it would be at the back in the #4 cylinder7 because that's where the water passage is. I don't believe there are any other water channels between head and block. To me that head gasket looks (looked) fine and there's no rust in the cylinders or on the valves. It may have been running a bit rich, indicated by some black carbon deposits, or you might have some slight wear in a few of the valve guides causing some oil consumption. Perhaps the engine was under water leading to water in the oil. What condition was the starter in? Was it rusted up? Was it replaced with a new one? A rusted up starter is an indication that it got wet at some point.
Rich, i too didn't think this engine had a blown head gasket. I was going to fa a cylinder compression leak down test, evev got out my test kit, but then thought i needed to go further into investigating the cause of water in oil.
I and other suggested several possible causes of my issue, one being possible crack head, over heating ect, so i pulled it. I will look vary close at the head for cracks tonight or tomorrow.
I have removed the starter, and the bendix looks like new, no rust visible, i think this is original starter, but the starter block bolts looked new. It may be a replaced starter?. I am thinking the engine was submerged up to a point, but still have not confirmed that yet. I can say that on the bottom of the hydraulic rams, is stuck old grass, just saw that last night
So the plot thickens. ..
Thanks for all the advice and input, you all
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I'm am still skeptical of the intake.......check it out.
I agree, head gasket looks good. i didn't realize there is only the couple ports in the rear. Either way, have the flatness checked on your head to make sure it's not warped.
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I'm am still skeptical of the intake.......check it out.
I agree, head gasket looks good. i didn't realize there is only the couple ports in the rear. Either way, have the flatness checked on your head to make sure it's not warped.
I am going to put the engine on the stand on Sunday, then get to work removing the old head gasket material, and inspecting
I did test the manifold with water, let it set for 3 days, no leaks to the inside or outside thus far, not sure about the acetone test?
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Is there anything to indicate water was/is entering the combustion chambers or just in the crankcase?
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The head and pistons looked clean to me.
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Is that an indicater of where the water may be coming from? Or may not be coming from?
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You don't get water in the oil from the combustion chamber, it comes from an internal leak that you can't see without pulling the pan. look for a little rust.
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clues....quote from Mercruiser service manuel........."if water is in cylinders only, usually entering through intake system" "if water is contained to crankcase only, usually cracked/pourous block.....a flooded bilge or condensation" "if water is in both cylinders and crankcase it is usually caused by water in the cylinders getting past the rings and valves or complete submersion. The point is where the water is and isn't can help lead to the cause, the first thing my techs do with these is change oil and try to duplicate the problem by running the motor, Example....if the problem (water intrusion) can not be duplicated by running then it is an outside source (submerged) then you need to identify what caused the water to get in the boat. we send our blocks/heads and manifolds to Wagomann Brothers for testing.
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clues....quote from Mercruiser service manuel........."if water is in cylinders only, usually entering through intake system" "if water is contained to crankcase only, usually cracked/pourous block.....a flooded bilge or condensation" "if water is in both cylinders and crankcase it is usually caused by water in the cylinders getting past the rings and valves or complete submersion. The point is where the water is and isn't can help lead to the cause, the first thing my techs do with these is change oil and try to duplicate the problem by running the motor, Example....if the problem (water intrusion) can not be duplicated by running then it is an outside source (submerged) then you need to identify what caused the water to get in the boat. we send our blocks/heads and manifolds to Wagomann Brothers for testing.
thanks for the input..
have been reading that also, I will be putting the engine on the stand soon, so I can remove the pan, and inspect the bottom end
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You don't get water in the oil from the combustion chamber, it comes from an internal leak that you can't see without pulling the pan. look for a little rust.
if water sits on top top of the pistons long enough after sitting with a blown head gasket, it can seep past the rings into the pan, which I don't see this one as being blown at this point. I have changed many head gaskets on auto engines, some with Wendys Frosty colored oil
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Good Morning!!
Here is a pic that I think will interest you all
maybe another clue? or not...
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/2014-02-22-08-16-37_zps881b2870.jpg)
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if water sits on top top of the pistons long enough after sitting with a blown head gasket, it can seep past the rings into the pan, which I don't see this one as being blown at this point. I have changed many head gaskets on auto engines, some with Wendys Frosty colored oil
Not a chance if air under compression won't go past water doesn't have a chance.
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Honestly, looking at everything so far I'd say the motor most likely has freeze damage. Those 3.0 MerCruisers are pretty much indestructable unless you forget to drain them and let 'em sit in freezing weather. My anectdotal experience says that how most of them meet their end. The fact that someone was in there smearing liquid steel, JB weld, or something else on the block and manifold plus the blown frost plug are strong indicators of freeze damage.
IMHO I think you can rule out that the water in the crankcase oil isn't due to submersion or a blown head gasket.
Just my 2 cents.
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Honestly, looking at everything so far I'd say the motor most likely has freeze damage. Those 3.0 MerCruisers are pretty much indestructable unless you forget to drain them and let 'em sit in freezing weather. My anectdotal experience says that how most of them meet their end. The fact that someone was in there smearing liquid steel, JB weld, or something else on the block and manifold plus the blown frost plug are strong indicators of freeze damage.
IMHO I think you can rule out that the water in the crankcase oil isn't due to submersion or a blown head gasket.
Just my 2 cents.
Agree. I think once you pull the pan you'll see the crack.
The 3.0's are not all that hard to find. At least around here. Not expensive either.
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Agree. I think once you pull the pan you'll see the crack.
Me three.
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ok, got it :
but as you know I will find out tomorrow, but if get lucky...I will be happy:)
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if water sits on top top of the pistons long enough after sitting with a blown head gasket, it can seep past the rings into the pan, which I don't see this one as being blown at this point. I have changed many head gaskets on auto engines, some with Wendys Frosty colored oil
Not a chance if air under compression won't go past water doesn't have a chance.
Jerry, I agree with you, what was thinking! lol
this is where I got the info...it got me thinking..
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0222141616_zps53885e27.jpg)
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On that engine if water was going to get into a cylinder from a bad head gasket it would be at the back in the #4 cylinder because that's where the water passage is. I don't believe there are any other water channels between head and block. To me that head gasket looks (looked) fine and there's no rust in the cylinders or on the valves. It may have been running a bit rich, indicated by some black carbon deposits, or you might have some slight wear in a few of the valve guides causing some oil consumption. Perhaps the engine was under water leading to water in the oil. What condition was the starter in? Was it rusted up? Was it replaced with a new one? A rusted up starter is an indication that it got wet at some point.
Rich, here is a pic of the starter that I removed. It looks like it may be original, or an replacement...just not sure
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0222141309_zpsd2a85818.jpg)
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That may be a new starter. If your engine was leaking water from the rear freeze plug then the flywheel would have been slinging the water all around inside the bell housing. If that was the original starter the bendix/pinion gear on the starter would probably have gotten all rusty. Also, looking at one of your pics from when the starter was mounted to the engine it looked like the support bracket was mounted to the starter a bit crooked which is not how it would have come from the factory. Methinks the starter was replaced at some point.
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if water sits on top top of the pistons long enough after sitting with a blown head gasket, it can seep past the rings into the pan, which I don't see this one as being blown at this point. I have changed many head gaskets on auto engines, some with Wendys Frosty colored oil
Not a chance if air under compression won't go past water doesn't have a chance.
Jerry, I agree with you, what was thinking! lol
this is where I got the info...it got me thinking..
Now I am getting curious......I think I can remember pouring oil into a combustion chamber (stuck from sitting) to try to free it....and I think I came back and refilled it once or twice ....Then again my memory is really old (like me)......I am going to do a test.........Experiment with photos on CGOAMN Trivia Question post.........
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0222141616_zps53885e27.jpg)
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Rich, do you go to Beaver Dam Wisconsin during the winter? I last was there 2012 so I will be going again next winter......
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if water sits on top top of the pistons long enough after sitting with a blown head gasket, it can seep past the rings into the pan, which I don't see this one as being blown at this point. I have changed many head gaskets on auto engines, some with Wendys Frosty colored oil
Not a chance if air under compression won't go past water doesn't have a chance.
Jerry, I agree with you, what was thinking! lol
this is where I got the info...it got me thinking..
Now I am getting curious......I think I can remember pouring oil into a combustion chamber (stuck from sitting) to try to free it....and I think I came back and refilled it once or twice ....Then again my memory is really old (like me)......I am going to do a test.........Experiment with photos on CGOAMN Trivia Question post.........
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0222141616_zps53885e27.jpg)
I will be interested in the results of that test...
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Well, I thought I would update this thread of what I found once mounted the engine on the stand, and removed the pan...
I saw a vary clean engine, with only some minor rust spots on some of the crankshaft counterweights, and block, kinda just random areas. I had a high power light, and looked around inside of the block, in every nook, and cranny, turned the engine to several different angles, so as to get a better look into some of the hard to see areas, for about 1 1/2 hours.
I then went across the street to my neighbors home, and asked if he wouldn't mind looking at it with me, for a second opinion ( he used to own a Marine Dealership for years, in Florida, serviced may engines, so I value his opinion)
I know that I need to find out what he thought, he had been back and forth, on his opinion, like I was....maybe internal crack block, maybe not a internal cracked block, possible a partially submerged engine...
Well he looked inside it, and looked inside it, and looked inside it...and I quote
" I see no evidence of an internal cracked block, just vary minor rust on the crank counterweights, and block, in random areas, which just wiped off with his finger, it all looks brand new!" He said " If I were you I would clean the bottom end up a bit, get as much of the milky out of her, turn her upright, put it all back together, do some valve work,and start her up" he also believes partial submersion, but not for a long time, or the bottom end would have rusted up more than it is, he thinks. I am not sure either bout that....we will never know the full story of what happened to this engine, other than freezing at some point
The engine still could be cracked internally, but at this point I'm not ready to throw up the White Flag...
as usual, I appreciate the comments, good or bad....
just a few pics
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0223141359a_zps4fd57c1e.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0223141359b_zps7988a373.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0223141400a_zpsb62ab211.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0223141400e_zps771c78c8.jpg)
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Looks good.
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I was going to scan wire color to pins.......Maybe valve guide seals?........Red or Rich will know...... or You could call Mercruiser consumer technical assistance in Stillwater Oklahoma check your manuel....should have shutter in pipe I think.
I'm going to check that shutter in the pipe tomorrow, will let you know what I find
thanks!
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Have you checked whats in the fuel tank? Does it smell like old fuel? Is there water in there? If the shutter is gone look inside the bearing carrier I get some customers that find "the heel off a shoe" (1/2 shutter) in there. LOL
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Have you checked whats in the fuel tank? Does it smell like Drold fuel? Is there water in there? If the shutter is gone look inside the bearing carrier I get some customers that find "the heel off a shoe" (1/2 shutter) in there. LOL
The fuel smells normal, i will look for that shutter in a few, let u know soon
Thanks fir the advice
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Have you checked whats in the fuel tank? Does it smell like old fuel? Is there water in there? If the shutter is gone look inside the bearing carrier I get some customers that find "the heel off a shoe" (1/2 shutter) in there. LOL
both shutters are there
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0224141411_zps00a1e1d4.jpg)
I also think this is evidence of the engine being partially submerged?
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0224141420a_zpsd6eda5e4.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0224141420_zpse38829b4.jpg)
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Oh, a water line mark on the transom! I would agree of submersion after seeing that. I would say put the engine back together and give it a try.
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If you put it back together I would run it on the floor for a while to see if you can "make oil" before you install it....If you get no water intrusion then it would seem to be submersion....I think I would send out the parts to the machine shop for testing before reassembly.....I would think you will need to put a gasket set in now? If it was submerged the next question is what caused it to take on that much water. Results of project "can fluid seep past piston rings" on Trivia post.
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If you put it back together I would run it on the floor for a while to see if you can "make oil" before you install it....If you get no water intrusion then it would seem to be submersion....I think I would send out the parts to the machine shop for testing before reassembly.....I would think you will need to put a gasket set in now? If it was submerged the next question is what caused it to take on that much water. Results of project "can fluid seep past piston rings" on Trivia post.
yes, I plan on running it on the floor, and my gasket set arrived yesterday.I plan on checking out the head myself, and have the experience to do the work if needed, except for resurfacing, if needed
I believe the water was held only on the inside. The outside hull has no water marks of any kind, the hull looks brand new.
so i will keep moving forward
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update
I got all put back together, sitting on the ground, and fired up, and she runs good! and sounds good, however.. ran the engine for about 30 minutes, still starts great, but have a noticeable slight misfire. I have new plugs gapped at .035, new wires, but old dizzy cap and rotor, the terminals had carbon so i removed is as good as i could. I will order a new cap and rotor
Any ideas on what else could cause that slight misfire? other than that, no other issues, except for seeing my gas disappear quickly, lol is this normal
Im no planning on putting the engine back in, until i know for sure all the bugs are worked out, first
how would you hook up external fuel tank for this?.
I had the fuel pump hose run into a clear plastic jar lid, with an additional tiny hole in the lid for air.The fuel line i'm using is clear. The fuel pump is mechanical, and needs to the suck the fuel, but the fuel line is not always full, because I have the jar sitting on the ground
also I checked to ensure that the dizzy ( distributor) rotor is pointing to the #1 when on TDCC, and it points to the 4:00 position, is the rotor point to the correct terminal for the year on 93? I feel like the rotor should be pointing to the #1 cylinder on TDCC or pointing to the 1 on the dizzy cap, which only has a line on it but not a 1. I know how to remove the dizzy, and reinstall it, but not sure if someone else messed with it. I did get her to run by using the 4:00 terminal as my number 1. I haven't even messed with the dizzy myself
Thanks for any advice
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update
I got all put back together, sitting on the ground, and fired up, and she runs good! and sounds good, however.. ran the engine for about 30 minutes, still starts great, but have a noticeable slight misfire. I have new plugs gapped at .035, new wires, but old dizzy cap and rotor, the terminals had carbon so i removed is as good as i could. I will order a new cap and rotor
Any ideas on what else could cause that slight misfire? other than that, no other issues, except for seeing my gas disappear quickly, lol is this normal
Im no planning on putting the engine back in, until i know for sure all the bugs are worked out, first
how would you hook up external fuel tank for this?.
I had the fuel pump hose run into a clear plastic jar lid, with an additional tiny hole in the lid for air.The fuel line i'm using is clear. The fuel pump is mechanical, and needs to the suck the fuel, but the fuel line is not always full, because I have the jar sitting on the ground
also I checked to ensure that the dizzy ( distributor) rotor is pointing to the #1 when on TDCC, and it points to the 4:00 position, is the rotor point to the correct terminal for the year on 93? I feel like the rotor should be pointing to the #1 cylinder on TDCC or pointing to the 1 on the dizzy cap, which only has a line on it but not a 1. I know how to remove the dizzy, and reinstall it, but not sure if someone else messed with it. I did get her to run by using the 4:00 terminal as my number 1. I haven't even messed with the dizzy myself
Thanks for any advice
I would try a new cap and rotor first to see if the misfire goes away, otherwise it could just need a new boost plunger in the carburetor.
To hook up an external tank just run the tank hose to the inlet fitting on the fuel pump. Make sure the tank vent is open so the fuel pump will draw the fuel out of tank without creating a vacuum.
Your distributor is positioned properly. Firing order from the 4 o'clock position going clockwise is 1-3-4-2. If you didn't reorient the distributor then your timing should be fine. Any repositioning of the distributor will change your timing, then you would need a timing light to reset it. In fact you should probably check the base timing anyway with a light, I think they're set around 6* before TDC.
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update
I got all put back together, sitting on the ground, and fired up, and she runs good! and sounds good, however.. ran the engine for about 30 minutes, still starts great, but have a noticeable slight misfire. I have new plugs gapped at .035, new wires, but old dizzy cap and rotor, the terminals had carbon so i removed is as good as i could. I will order a new cap and rotor
Any ideas on what else could cause that slight misfire? other than that, no other issues, except for seeing my gas disappear quickly, lol is this normal
Im no planning on putting the engine back in, until i know for sure all the bugs are worked out, first
how would you hook up external fuel tank for this?.
I had the fuel pump hose run into a clear plastic jar lid, with an additional tiny hole in the lid for air.The fuel line i'm using is clear. The fuel pump is mechanical, and needs to the suck the fuel, but the fuel line is not always full, because I have the jar sitting on the ground
also I checked to ensure that the dizzy ( distributor) rotor is pointing to the #1 when on TDCC, and it points to the 4:00 position, is the rotor point to the correct terminal for the year on 93? I feel like the rotor should be pointing to the #1 cylinder on TDCC or pointing to the 1 on the dizzy cap, which only has a line on it but not a 1. I know how to remove the dizzy, and reinstall it, but not sure if someone else messed with it. I did get her to run by using the 4:00 terminal as my number 1. I haven't even messed with the dizzy myself
Thanks for any advice
I would try a new cap and rotor first to see if the misfire goes away, otherwise it could just need a new boost plunger in the carburetor.
To hook up an external tank just run the tank hose to the inlet fitting on the fuel pump. Make sure the tank vent is open so the fuel pump will draw the fuel out of tank without creating a vacuum.
Your distributor is positioned properly. Firing order from the 4 o'clock position going clockwise is 1-3-4-2. If you didn't reorient the distributor then your timing should be fine. Any repositioning of the distributor will change your timing, then you would need a timing light to reset it. In fact you should probably check the base timing anyway with a light, I think they're set around 6* before TDC.
thanks Rich!
I do have a 6 gal external fuel tank with a vented cap, I will use that. I would like to get some fuel from my boat tank if possible, it has a 1/2 full tank, do you know any way to get that fuel out? I would like to use some of that fuel if I can
The Dizzy cap wiring is the way you described, at least I set it up that way, here is a pic of it
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0309141804_zps0c268f41.jpg)
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thanks Rich!
I do have a 6 gal external fuel tank with a vented cap, I will use that. I would like to get some fuel from my boat tank if possible, it has a 1/2 full tank, do you know any way to get that fuel out? I would like to use some of that fuel if I can
The Dizzy cap wiring is the way you described, at least I set it up that way, here is a pic of it
I've attached a hose with an outboard primer bulb to fuel tanks to pump the fuel out into other tanks or bottles, if possible to siphon it out as long as the tank doesn't have an anti-siphon valve on it. I've even used an electric fuel pump on a hose if constantly squeezing a primer bulb was going to take too long.
Your cap is set up correctly.
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thanks Rich!
I do have a 6 gal external fuel tank with a vented cap, I will use that. I would like to get some fuel from my boat tank if possible, it has a 1/2 full tank, do you know any way to get that fuel out? I would like to use some of that fuel if I can
The Dizzy cap wiring is the way you described, at least I set it up that way, here is a pic of it
I've attached a hose with an outboard primer bulb to fuel tanks to pump the fuel out into other tanks or bottles, if possible to siphon it out as long as the tank doesn't have an anti-siphon valve on it. I've even used an electric fuel pump on a hose if constantly squeezing a primer bulb was going to take too long.
Your cap is set up correctly.
thanks again Rich
I think my inboard fuel tank may have an anti-siphon valve, however I can suck some fuel from tank by mouth, but not vary effective, as you may know. I will try a primer bulb or electric fuel pump that I have laying around
thanks on the cap reassurance on that. I have a few folks say that I need to change the dizzy so the rotor points correctly
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I have a few folks say that I need to change the dizzy so the rotor points correctly
You could could orient the distributor in any direction you want so long as the rotor points to a terminal that you deem as #1 at TDC. But the way it is currently set up now is the way it comes from the factory so all the wires are easily accessible and routed to their proper spark plug.
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I have a few folks say that I need to change the dizzy so the rotor points correctly
You could could orient the distributor in any direction you want so long as the rotor points to a terminal that you deem as #1 at TDC. But the way it is currently set up now is the way it comes from the factory so all the wires are easily accessible and routed to their proper spark plug.
thank you Rich
I just ordered a nee cap and rotor, should be here in a couple of days.
Now talking about the booster pump in the carb? I will check on that if the items I ordered will not correct the issue of that slight misfire, all things consider that went I felt , and had to do the the engine. I feel good about it, no water in the oil yet, but I guess as I continue to run it on/off for a while, maybe that water in the oil will never show up anytime soon:)
btw when i run the engine, can i run it above 1/2 throttle, with the water hooked up to the long water intake rubber tube?. I am trying to warm the engine up enough that it will seat the new head gasket
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btw when i run the engine, can i run it above 1/2 throttle, with the water hooked up to the long water intake rubber tube?. I am trying to warm the engine up enough that it will seat the new head gasket
I wouldn't continually run the engine above half throttle without a load on it, or at least only long enough to determine what you think it needs during diagnosis/warm up. But yes, connecting the water to the intake hose while running it shouldn't be a problem. If the thermostat is working properly then it will regulate the temperature between 140 and 165 degrees. I'm assuming you're going to re-torque the head bolts after it's been warmed up?
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btw when i run the engine, can i run it above 1/2 throttle, with the water hooked up to the long water intake rubber tube?. I am trying to warm the engine up enough that it will seat the new head gasket
I wouldn't continually run the engine above half throttle without a load on it, or at least only long enough to determine what you think it needs during diagnosis/warm up. But yes, connecting the water to the intake hose while running it shouldn't be a problem. If the thermostat is working properly then it will regulate the temperature between 140 and 165 degrees. I'm assuming you're going to re-torque the head bolts after it's been warmed up?
thanks again:)
Now maybe I did my valve lash incorrectly, and could be causing a slight misfire?
I did the
Valve Adjustment
Engine Not Running
Valve Adjustment
Engine Not Running
With valve cover removed, adjust valves when lifter
is on low part of camshaft lobe, as follows:
1. Crank engine with starter or turn over in normal
direction of rotation until mark on torsional damper
lines up with center “0” mark on timing tab, and
engine is in No. 1 firing position. This may be determined
by placing fingers on No. 1 valve as
mark. If valves move as mark comes up to timing
tab, engine is in No.4 firing position and should be
turned over one more time to reach No. 1 position.
50770
No. 1 Cylinder - Exhaust and Intake
No. 2 Cylinder - Intake
No. 3 Cylinder - Exhaust
No. 4 Cylinder - Intake
2. With engine in No. 1 firing position as determined
above, the following valves may be adjusted:
3. Back out adjusting nut until lash is felt at push rod,
then turn in adjusting nut until all lash is removed.
This can be determined by moving push rod upand-
down while turning adjusting nut until all play
is removed.
4. Hydraulic lifters now can be adjusted by tightening
adjustment nut an additional 3/4-turn. Valve
lash should be checked after engine has run and
reached operating temperature.
5. Crank engine one revolution until pointer “0” mark
and torsional damper mark are again in alignment.
This is No. 4 firing position. With engine in
this position, the following valves may be adjusted:
No. 2 Cylinder - Exhaust
No. 3 Cylinder - Intake
No. 4 Cylinder - Exhaust
6. Install distributor cap, spark plug wires and coil
lead.
7. Install rocker arm cover; torque to 40 lb. in. (4.5
N·m).
72300
I haven't done this one yet, but will
Engine Running
Following procedure should be completed only if
readjustment is required.
1. Run engine until it reaches normal operating temperature,
then remove valve cover.
2. With engine running at idle, back off valve rocker
arm nut until valve rocker arm starts to clatter.
3. Turn rocker arm nut down slowly until clatter just
stops. This is zero lash position.
4. Turn nut down 1/4 additional turn and pause 10
seconds until engine runs smoothly. Repeat additional
1/4 turns, pausing 10 seconds each time,
until nut has been turned down 3/4 turn from zero
lash position.
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Um, .... yeah. Something like that.
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Um, .... yeah. Something like that.
just what I said lol when i read how to do it.....
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I have a video for ya'll...
Mercruiser 3.0, I took this video this evening after work. It starts up cold really easy , and runs vary well.
The engine may sound like it is running at higher than 1/4 throttle, but it's not. I did take care of the misfireing, this evening, with actually using a 6 gal plastic boat tank with a vented cap, and adjusting the carb mixture a small amount. I still have the old dizzy cap and rotor, but ordered one, and it is on it's way.
I let the engine run for about 40 minutes, and it didn't even misfire, of flinch at all...I feel good!
I still have a lot more test runs, and things to check out, but still feel confident that this will be a good engine, just hope the "Wendys Frosty Oil" doesn't come back
not sure how to embed this video in the text, but here is a link
http://youtu.be/WmWe-adNRYk (http://youtu.be/WmWe-adNRYk)
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I'd say throw her back in the boat and go for a ride! Nice work.
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I'd say throw her back in the boat and go for a ride! Nice work.
Thanks!
I will leave the engine out for a while, have to move on to the gimble bearing, trim pump, and few other items
I will continue to run the engine a few timed a week
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That motor sounds good, idle is a bit high though. I'm going through the same thing right now with a V6 if you've been following my project.
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That motor sounds good, idle is a bit high though. I'm going through the same thing right now with a V6 if you've been following my project.
Thanks!
The idle is s tad up, but i don't have an extra external rpm gauge to go by. I will lower it a tad
I will see if i can find your threats, and follow your progress
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" I will see if i can find your threats, and follow your progress"
LOL ... That was funny !
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" I will see if i can find your threats, and follow your progress"
LOL ... That was funny !
Darn auto correct, lol
"Thread"
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My threat is the "OMC to Mercruiser Conversion" post, also a non-Glastron project.
Link:
http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=4821.0 (http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=4821.0)
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Putting a "B-word" on a Glastron site IS a threat! ........all other boats are ok though.
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Putting a "B-word" on a Glastron site IS a threat! ........all other boats are ok though.
Feeling threatened by a B-Liner, are we?
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I almost bought one of those "B-boats" before i bought this Chaparral
Not so sure i wanted to mention that lol
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well, as I have mentioned before.I want to run the engine some on, and off on the ground, before I think about putting it back in the boat. I want to continue to do this, so I can ensure that the engine oil, is free from any water contamination.
I thought would as much as I have run the engine, any oil contamination would have showed up by now, however the new engine oil is not as clear as it has been, just noticed that this evening, maybe nothing, but again maybe it is something, not sure yet
The engine oil level has not increased on the dip, so I am keeping a close eye on it. The color of the oil is a little cloudyish, if that is a word
what are your opinions?
I am just a tad bit worried, but again maybe I just need to change the oil, and filter, after a few more start ups and running then keep checking it
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maybe I just need to change the oil, and filter, after a few more start ups and running then keep checking it
Definitely a good idea IMHO. Helps clean out any "sludge" that may be inside from unknown previous maintenance schedules, if that makes any sense? All new to me used engines get a short initial run oil change as a clean out procedure. I've known some guys to use straight kerosene / diesel fuel in this to take it to the extreme, but it seemed a little dangerous to me to do it that way? But a fresh filter and oil change never hurt anybody!
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maybe I just need to change the oil, and filter, after a few more start ups and running then keep checking it
Definitely a good idea IMHO. Helps clean out any "sludge" that may be inside from unknown previous maintenance schedules, if that makes any sense? All new to me used engines get a short initial run oil change as a clean out procedure. I've known some guys to use straight kerosene / diesel fuel in this to take it to the extreme, but it seemed a little dangerous to me to do it that way? But a fresh filter and oil change never hurt anybody!
Hey Mark!
I got home 5 minutes ago and went out to lookat a fee drops of engine oil, that I put on a piece of clear glass
And the drops of oil looked fresh and new, nothing cloudy, so maybe I'll be ok
Good to hear from u on the thread:)
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well, maybe I spoke too soon
her is a pic of 2 drops of oil from the dipstick
the drop highlighted in "Yellow" was done last night, and was the same color as the drop of oil in "Red" , but after sitting all night, and day. I got home at 6:30 pm this evening and the drop of oil had cleared up.
The drop of oil in " Red" was just taken from the dipstick, 15 minutes ago, from a cold engine, I did not start it up....
so i would appreciate any opinions please. I still feel like it is just dirty, can't really see any water in it at this point
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/2014-03-14-19-47-45_zpsfd089832.jpg)
just went back out to look at the oil again, and now it is clear at 8:40, looks like clean oil
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0314142034_zps796fb04b.jpg)
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There is bound to be some "gunk" left in the engine since it didn't get a complete teardown and rebuild, especially since it's had the head off - etc.. I'd still (get the engine good and warm) change the oil and filter now Dwayne, but that's just me. I know you're on a budget, but $25 is cheap insurance IMHO. (It doesn't look bad to me, but there's no such thing as being too careful with the most important system in the motor.) Just my two cents worth, we're all hoping this works out for ya! ;)
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There is bound to be some "gunk" left in the engine since it didn't get a complete teardown and rebuild, especially since it's had the head off - etc.. I'd still (get the engine good and warm) change the oil and filter now Dwayne, but that's just me. I know you're on a budget, but $25 is cheap insurance IMHO. (It doesn't look bad to me, but there's no such thing as being too careful with the most important system in the motor.) Just my two cents worth, we're all hoping this works out for ya! ;)
yes, I agree:)
I will get that engine started up again today, provided it don't rain lol
I was getting paranoid thinking water was getting back in to the oil, but I think all I see is some gunk, as you said...
thanks mark
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Well I guess I spoke too soon....:(......or maybe its condensation, because of not running the engine long enough. The oil on the dipstick has not risen
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0315141015_zps1e61a4f5.jpg)
alos these brand new plugs look like the engine is running rich, they all look like the #1 plug
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0315141026_zpsdab9d8bd.jpg)
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How many oil/filter changes? when the motor was apart would you guess you got 100% of moisture out or 80% or? Is there any sign of water in any combustion chamber?
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How many oil/filter changes? when the motor was apart would you guess you got 100% of moisture out or 80% or? Is there any sign of water in any combustion chamber?
this is the first new oil and filter, only ran the engine a few times since, but not long enough for the t-stat to open up, seems like it takes a long time for the engine block to heat up.
When the motor was apart. I am not sure that all the moisture was out of the block. I pressure washed the head, and blew it dry with compressed air, but not sure all the water was gone.
I have no water in the combustion chamber that I can see, the new plugs are black in color, like it;s running rich
thanks for the help
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Seems like it takes my 140 a while to warm up on the hose idling also.
What's the plan if you decide the motor is junk? Those are pretty easy to pull out after it's in the boat. about 30min to get it out. I think I would run the engine maybe 10 minutes at a time like you are doing, change the oil, then do it again. Maybe about 3 times.... Then put it back in boat and go for a ride on the water. You might just really need open it up and get it really warm before you will know anything. At this point, if you are still getting water in the motor, you know for sure you have a very small crack and you need a new motor...and/or manifold.
oh yea, get one of these before you put the motor back in. makes changing the oil a lot easier and you don't need a pump. Just verify the thread size on your oil pan. There might be cheaper ones out there too.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TRACKER-D415299-JABSCO-18080-BOAT-OIL-DRAIN-HOSE-FITTING-KIT-/400326359266?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item5d354f78e2&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/TRACKER-D415299-JABSCO-18080-BOAT-OIL-DRAIN-HOSE-FITTING-KIT-/400326359266?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item5d354f78e2&vxp=mtr)
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Well I have a update...this is going to be a somewhat long story so bear with me on this, and I would appreciate you professional opinions on my diagnosis of what I think is going on..
I run the engine for almost 2hrs straight today, longer than I have before. I ran her at qbout 1/4 throttle for most of the time, and a little above idle some of the time, and at idle some time. I only shut her down 2 times during this run.
I noticed when she would run at idle or a little above idle, I would see what looked like steam coming out the exhaust, not a lot, but it was noticeable. I was thinking that it looks like what I normally would see with a blown head gasket on some vehicle engines I have worked on, however I replace the head gasket, torqued to specifications in order per the FSM. I was thinking in my head " Gosh my head gasket is failing...oh DIRT!!, but how could that be??? maybe something else is causing this".
Well, I noticed that the valve cover crankcase breather tube, the plastic part that is made on the cover( I don't have a hose on it) kept spitting out white milky oil, every once in a while. The air venting from that tube smelled kinda weird, not like the normal oil smell that you would get..I then glanced into the carburetor and saw this on the throttle plates
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0315141407_zps33850988.jpg)
I decide to shut the engine down after the oil started to look more milky than it has been. I then checked the oil on the dipstick, and the oil level was still the same...so at this point I'm think "water intrusion into the crankcase somehow, but how".
I thought at this point with the engine still hot, I would do a water pressure test on the cooling system, which I had done previously with air, before the engine tear down. It held good pressure for over 2 hrs, after replacing that blown out freeze plug....so I began my water pressure test. I blocked off the exhaust rubber boot with a empty portable propane torch bottle with the band clamps around it. I the turned on the water just a little so pressure would build up in the system and to my surprise I saw this..
not sure if you can see water coming up between the #2 & #3 cylinder exhaust ports
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0315141545_zps77fb96b1.jpg)
Now, I had a crack between the #2 & #3 exhaust ports that didn't leak when previously tested. I did grind a V grove in that crack, and used Marine JB Weld for a repair, thinking "it's just an exhaust port, no water could come through there"
Well, when I saw that water coming out between the manifold, and head, i also heard a loud explosion, and got water sprayed all over me!. The propane torch bottle blew off the end of the rubber Exhaust boot, and luckily, i was on the other side of it..:).
I am no expert , but I think that the manifold has an internal crack that is opening up when engine is hot,and allowing water to get into the cylinders. I had the most water in the #3 cylinder and a tad bit in the others. I also know that some of the water got into the ports of the head when I removed the manifold, I forgot to drain the water out before removal, stupid thing fir me to do...I did remove all spark plugs and blew out the cylinders, fogged them, and put plugs back in, for now.
I would like your opinions of my diagnosis, and does water run behind that #2 & #3 exhaust ports on the manifold?. I don't think the water runs behind the manifold intake ports, only because on one of the intake ports of the manifold, there is a what looks to be some kind plug on top on the manifold. I can put my finger inside the port and feel the hole that the plug screws into, maybe i'm incorrect about what ports the water runs behind..
thanks for reading this. I know it was a long post...
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Dunno...seems like its time to shop:
http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/boa/4356205146.html (http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/boa/4356205146.html)
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Dunno...seems like its time to shop:
http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/boa/4356205146.html (http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/boa/4356205146.html)
thanks! I feel like I need to shop...that is a good price on the engine.
This engine runs and sounds so good...just don't know what I;m going to do at this point..I keep trying to figure this out, and may throw up the White Flag at some point
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I'm curious as to how you closed off the water outlet when you did your pressure test. It would seem to me that if you just blocked off the exhaust pipe that water would fill the exhaust manifold and end up in the cylinders. But if water was not flowing back through the exhaust tube then there would have to be cracks in the manifold.
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I'm curious as to how you closed off the water outlet when you did your pressure test. It would seem to me that if you just blocked off the exhaust pipe that water would fill the exhaust manifold and end up in the cylinders. But if water was not flowing back through the exhaust tube then there would have to be cracks in the manifold.
Rich...I think you are right! I didn't even think about that. I did not properly block off the exhaust pipe. I just took a portable propane torch, and put the bottom end up inside the rubber exhaust boot, then used the two large clamps to tighten it down, turned on the water, and got the water coming up between the manifold, and head gasket..I was also trying to see if I get water into the oil pan too
totally forgot about the open exhaust...I feel sooooo stupid, just wasn't thinking
so now I guess I need to figure out what to do. I have ruined the intake gasket and the exhaust riser gasket
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I noticed when she would run at idle or a little above idle, I would see what looked like steam coming out the exhaust, not a lot, but it was noticeable.
Steam is indicative of not enough water flowing through the exhaust manifold or riser/elbow, usually caused by too much rust buildup in the elbow water passages choking off the flow. This can also increase water pressure inside the block.
Moisture on the throttle plates is not a great concern. It's most likely due to the plates being cold and the faster air rushing through the venturi causing condensation. If your plugs are turning black it is a sign that the engine is running rich, either from the idle mix adjustment screw being too rich, float level too high, or a worn out float needle causing too much fuel to enter the carburetor.
I just took a portable propane torch, and put the bottom end up inside the rubber exhaust boot, then used the two large clamps to tighten it down, turned on the water, and got the water coming up between the manifold, and head gasket..I was also trying to see if I get water into the oil pan too
Yep, that's how you flood an engine with water. Get all the water out and run the engine again so it doesn't rust up on you.
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I noticed when she would run at idle or a little above idle, I would see what looked like steam coming out the exhaust, not a lot, but it was noticeable.
Steam is indicative of not enough water flowing through the exhaust manifold or riser/elbow, usually caused by too much rust buildup in the elbow water passages choking off the flow. This can also increase water pressure inside the block.
Moisture on the throttle plates is not a great concern. It's most likely due to the plates being cold and the faster air rushing through the venturi causing condensation. If your plugs are turning black it is a sign that the engine is running rich, either from the idle mix adjustment screw being too rich, float level too high, or a worn out float needle causing too much fuel to enter the carburetor.
I just took a portable propane torch, and put the bottom end up inside the rubber exhaust boot, then used the two large clamps to tighten it down, turned on the water, and got the water coming up between the manifold, and head gasket..I was also trying to see if I get water into the oil pan too
Yep, that's how you flood an engine with water. Get all the water out and run the engine again so it doesn't rust up on you.
thanks Rich for your input. I appreciate it, and will order new gaskets, and put it back together. I may, if I can afford it, buy a new or used manifold and riser.
do you think I need to pressure test the block again? if so how would you do it?
thanks!
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do you think I need to pressure test the block again? if so how would you do it?
I think the first way you did it was probably the best way, by plugging the thermostat outlet hose and using air to pressurize the system through the inlet hose. Air is a smaller molecule than water so if there are any leaks you should find them, unless they're internal. A pressure gauge will indicate if you're losing pressure over time.
I remember there was MarineTex or JB Weld on the manifold most likely to seal a freeze crack but I don't remember if there was any on the block. If the crack in the manifold was extensive I don't think I'd trust it. If it cracked on the outside it could be cracked inside too.
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well, I have a update...
it stopped raining here for a few hours, so I decided to put the engine back together. I was able to reuse the gaskets on the manifold, and exhaust riser.
I starter her up, and she ran perfect, as she has been doing. I let her warm up and proceeded to pump the oil from the pan, and removed the oil filter...here is what came out...maybe I didn''t torque the head gasket enough. The FMS stated 90 lb-ft in sequence and that is what I did
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0316141501a_zps9d19e26a.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0316141547a_zps8d8c250d.jpg)
Now I just got to figure out if I should continue with flushing the engine out with some sort of engine flush, along with new oil, and filter, then run her for a while again...see what the oil looks like after that...OR...just give up and sell parts off the engine, so I can start to find a local 3.0 used, priced right, and hopefully don't have the same problem as I think this one may still have..
I have a questions for ya'll
1. How much water mixed with the engine oil will cause the color change?
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I'd start looking for a used motor. I highly recommend finding either one with a warranty or in a donor boat you can lake test.
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1. How much water mixed with the engine oil will cause the color change?
It doesn't take a lot, but what you've got there is substantial IMHO. (More than what's being just "flushed out" of the motor.)
You can watch Craig's List for a local deal on a motor, or have you called Joe Poole at Ferguson Poole Marine yet? (I've got his contact info if you need it.) There's also a guy just south of you in Pike Co. I believe who wheels and deals in used marine I/O stuff, I'll see if I can find his info here somewhere - think I found him on C/L as well. As stated, you have to be careful buying used to not get the same problems you already have!
ATK and Jasper engines both offer reman. short and long blocks I believe, but not really "budget friendly" in my book. Have you considered pulling her down and sending the block and head off to a machine shop for checking? (Magnaflux and pressure check would identify the possible problem(s) in a short order.) Dover in Atl. can repair some cracks, or possibly offer replacement parts on just whatever is bad. Still a fair chunk of $, but maybe an option?
Maybe I'm jumping the gun on drastic measures here, possibly maniflold / heat exchanger / other issues can be explored further? I know you're trying to get her on the water this season with minimal expense, hate it you're having all this trouble brother!
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1. How much water mixed with the engine oil will cause the color change?
It doesn't take a lot, but what you've got there is substantial IMHO. (More than what's being just "flushed out" of the motor.)
You can watch Craig's List for a local deal on a motor, or have you called Joe Poole at Ferguson Poole Marine yet? (I've got his contact info if you need it.) There's also a guy just south of you in Pike Co. I believe who wheels and deals in used marine I/O stuff, I'll see if I can find his info here somewhere - think I found him on C/L as well. As stated, you have to be careful buying used to not get the same problems you already have!
ATK and Jasper engines both offer reman. short and long blocks I believe, but not really "budget friendly" in my book. Have you considered pulling her down and sending the block and head off to a machine shop for checking? (Magnaflux and pressure check would identify the possible problem(s) in a short order.) Dover in Atl. can repair some cracks, or possibly offer replacement parts on just whatever is bad. Still a fair chunk of $, but maybe an option?
Maybe I'm jumping the gun on drastic measures here, possibly maniflold / heat exchanger / other issues can be explored further? I know you're trying to get her on the water this season with minimal expense, hate it you're having all this trouble brother!
thanks Mark, for the advice, concerns, and information...I will respond to your comment when I can today...off to work I go...
Well, at work sitting in parking lot, before i go in at 8:00
I would like those numbers, may come in handy at some point
I will keep troubleshooting the manifold, riser, pressure test them, and prrssure test the block once again.
I will see how much the magna fluxing of the will cost
On a positive note.....she is running! Didn,t think she would when i picked her up that day..,
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I went to a vary local reputable machine shop in town, who does business with the county I work for. I explained to the owner about my mercruiser 3.0, and asked if he is familiar with it, he said " sure I see marine engines ect all the time" I then mentioned to him about the issue with it, and what i have done to resolve the issue, and where I am with it at this point. The owner first commented me on a "good job" on what I have done thus far, and "most folks don't know that much about the marine cooling systems,possible causes of milky oil" ect, ect. I asked about me bringing in the head for a magnaflux test, and mill..he said " sure I can do that for about $100.00 but if you have a crack, then I can repair it for a few dollars more, just remove the rocker arms and bring it in" .
I said ok I will do that if I need to...he said " if I were you i would test the manifold with city water, just get 2 mounting bolts longer than the end ones you have. Then you replace the 2 end manifold bolts with the 2 longer ones, and remove the remaining bolts, slide the manifold away from the head mating surface, block off the riser some how, and water pressure test. If the manifold is leaaking internally, then you will see the water coming into the ports, and if so then you have a bad manifold"
I then asked if he thinks the block maybe cracked? he said " could be if it froze, if it did, most likely in the oil gallerys, or outside of the block, but that would take a really hard long freeze, the blocks are pretty bullet proof, but on rare occasion can crack" . I mentioned that I pressure tested the entire cooling system including the head with 19.5 psi for more than 2 hrs, and it held it, so I proceeded to move forward with the investigation, and tear down...
He said " I probably would have done the same thing" . He asked me about the head. I said i ran a pressure test and had excellent compression.so I proceeded with the tear down..he said " that's good but if you would have done a compression leak down test you may not have had to remove the head" I said ....I was going to but decided to just do the tear down so i can have a look at everything...he said " now that you have a new head gasket I would go ahead and do a compression leak down test. It will let you know if you have a possible head leakage problem, warped head, ect"....." and bring in the head if and when you want too we will inspect it". I asked about magnafluxing the block he said " we can do that too, however you would have to strip it down, clean it, and drop it of, and that is quite a but more money to do the test, then if it is ok, you will have to buy new cam, cam bearings , ect,ect, and before you know it you got $ 400.00 in to it " that is all we could talk about in the amount of time I had to spend there.
Well, I am at the point where I will re-test the cooling system again, the manifold, compression leak down test, and go from there. I will take the head into his shop for work if I need too. If I get to the point where i feel I have exhausted all these efforts to find the water intrusion...I will either stop this project, and sell parts off it or sell the entire engine as a whole, or I will do a something else with my situation.
I hope that machine shop owner knows what he is talking about....I know we all have our own opinions on things
My wife knows that i don't give up easily on anything, most everything I have worked on I have repaired with great success, but the marine engine saltwater cooling is a different animal, and it is now starting to make sense to me. I am no professional mechanic nor do I claim to be one, that is why I belong to forums, of different interest
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..............the blocks are pretty bullet proof, but on rare occasion can crack"..............
LOL
Maybe in Georgia. Not up here!
Seriously, sounds like you found a good honest guy. The fact he gave you all that advice without asking for a dime says a lot.
I can see how you won't give up until you at least know for a fact exactly what the problem is. Good for you. I wish I had that amount of patience. Keep us updated.
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I think I remember seeing that it was a 3.0. I saw one on the Madison C/L
http://madison.craigslist.org/boa/4366028770.html (http://madison.craigslist.org/boa/4366028770.html)
Just an idea. Good luck!!
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..............the blocks are pretty bullet proof, but on rare occasion can crack"..............
LOL
Maybe in Georgia. Not up here!
Seriously, sounds like you found a good honest guy. The fact he gave you all that advice without asking for a dime says a lot.
I can see how you won't give up until you at least know for a fact exactly what the problem is. Good for you. I wish I had that amount of patience. Keep us updated.
thanks Jason
I am moving forward with patience, I may or may not win this one, however either way I will keep updating this thread...
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I think I remember seeing that it was a 3.0. I saw one on the Madison C/L
http://madison.craigslist.org/boa/4366028770.html (http://madison.craigslist.org/boa/4366028770.html)
Just an idea. Good luck!!
thanks! joe...I did look at that CL ad and if that engine is as described, someone will get a great deal!
me however with 2 girls in college, car payments, mortgage payments, ect, ect. I would have a hard time coming up with $1,000.00 cash.at this point
thanks again
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Just looking ....
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1995 3.0 Mercruiser Boat Motor and trailer - $500
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/boa/4379750619.html (http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/boa/4379750619.html)
(http://images.craigslist.org/00d0d_enNPpED87Ae_600x450.jpg)
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17 ft. Inboard Outboard Boat - $500 (Jasper, Ga)
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/boa/4379409615.html (http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/boa/4379409615.html)
(http://images.craigslist.org/00x0x_afESuT9WSM6_600x450.jpg)
****************************************************************************************
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Just looking ....
1995 3.0 Mercruiser Boat Motor and trailer - $500
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/boa/4379750619.html (http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/boa/4379750619.html)
(http://images.craigslist.org/00d0d_enNPpED87Ae_600x450.jpg)
Can't go wrong with that. Has a $500 trailer sitting under it! Worth a shot in my book. Maybe you can bring your little gas tank and try to run it for a while.
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Thanks for the CL links!
I may have to consider going that route
Y'all have been a great help!
I will keep plugging away. If i can not find the leakage, then I will figure out what to do...and let y'all know what my next move will be
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update this evening
I ran the engine last night after changing the oil, and new filter, for about 20 minutes.
I shut the engine down and let it set overnight. I got home and decided to pull the plugs, wanted to see if water was in the cylinders, 1 & 4 cylinders dry, cylinder 2&3, piston top looked wet, right in the middle of the top of the piston. I thought ok possible water dripping from the ports of the manifold into the 2&3 exhaust ports. I needed to see what was going on.
I decided to remove all the manifold bolts, except for the 2 end ones, so I could slide the manifold out away from the head, far enough to maybe see the ports of the manifold, and head. I did this to investigate, and possible see which port may have what I think is some water entering the head, and dripping on thp of those 2 piston tops.
I saw 2 wet manifold ports, and 2 wet head ports, which are intake ports for 2&3 cylinders directly under the carburetor.I think I have a leaking carburetor needle, and seat, at this point. I put a shop paper towel on the end of a flat head screw driver and pushed it down between the head, and manifold hoping the paper towel will touch the wet spot, so i can determine if it is gas, or water...it was gas, so I moved on to something else
I then decided to remove the riser from the manifold and this is what I saw ( see pic below). I haven't ran the engine today at all, and this could be condensation, however looks like more water pooling possible from a cracked manifold, or riser
I still have the manifold pulled away isolated from the head, and will pressure test it, and keep my fingers crossed that this is the cause of my water intrusion into the engine. I havent figured out how to test the riser by itself yet, but the gasket mating surface could cause water to enter this exhaust passage also, am I correct?....opinion please, and thank you!
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/2014-03-19-19-27-35_zpsa3sbbsaz.jpg)
same pic without the notes
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0319141846_zpsfdj3djp2.jpg)
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Is there a milky oil coating inside that manifold or is that JB Weld?? I'd be scrutinizing that manifold closely.
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Is there a milky oil coating inside that manifold or is that JB Weld?? I'd be scrutinizing that manifold closely.
Good observation! what do you think about the water in the bottom of that manifold? it got in there somehow
not sure, I will have to investigate it closer. It is hard to do anything after work, even with the extra daylight
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Deleted post
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I think you'll solve the problem with it. I still think that engine is fine and the manifold is your problem.
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I thought I would run my own dye test today, on the water jackets of the head, and block...with manifold removed
I took a 32oz cup and added 1 full tube of Dark Green food coloring dye, mixed it up, and poured it into the t- stat hose. I then pressurized the system with 20 psi and after about 20 minutes, I drained the engine oil
here is what I found in the engine oil...now I have to figure out " Head or Block"
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0323141340_zpsslwfe52b.jpg)
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Well that shot down my theory.
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Well that shot down my theory.
well, what can I say..." I never give up"
now moving on to find the root cause...this has been one heck of a ride along, with this engine:)
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pulled the plugs...no green in the cylinders
I will pull the head again, and hope I see some green...if not, and it is the block then I give up:( on it at that point...I am done with my task...
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I could be podsibly selling parts off this engine...i will know sometime this week
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Seems like if it were going to crack it would crack in block as if it froze in the head it had to have froze in the block.
Might want to keep parts for your new engine. But if you do part it out I would be interested in the ignition system (coil, distributor, and wiring). That distributor should drop right into my 74 140 right Rich??
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That distributor should drop right into my 74 140 right Rich??
I think so. Or just stick with the old distributor and add a Pertronix Ignitor to eliminate the points.
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I'm not a Pertronix fan.....
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When I found my 898 had a cracked block, I took the entire motor to the machine shop, and they moved as much as they could over to the new block...saved quite a bit of money that way. Kept the quoted (possibly) $2000 rebuild down to $1250...
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I am with Doran, keep everything until you know what you have with a used engine. I was going to go all new with my 140 rebuild until I had to buy a used head and manifold because both of mine were cracked beyond repair.
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Yes, got it
Just still curious about the leakage. I will investigate it farther
But .... if cracked block....then i will seek out another engine, in the meantime i will concentrate on the boat, trim motor, and gimble bearing stuff
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I have a few questions about this motor I saw for sale
it suppose to be a new engine " test hours only" that is all I know except for the price 1,000....which I don't have at the moment
what year is this 3.0?
What type is it? looks different than mine
any opinions, just for giggles lol
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/Mercruiserforsale4_zpscbca435f.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/Mercruiserforsale1_zpsd1fcdd30.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/Mercruiserforsale3_zpsad5b7f45.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/Mercruiserforsale2_zps544cd96a.jpg)
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Judging from the intake/exhaust and thermostat housing I'd say it was not used for marine application, must have had a radiator for closed cooling. The block looks GM but can't tell if it's a 2.5 or a 3.0 liter. It would probably indicate it on the side of the block just above the starter.
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Judging from the intake/exhaust and thermostat housing I'd say it was not used for marine application, must have had a radiator for closed cooling. The block looks GM but can't tell if it's a 2.5 or a 3.0 liter. It would probably indicate it on the side of the block just above the starter.
kinda weird looking engine...
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Looks different because the front pedestal mount isn't there in front of the crank pulley and there's no housing covering the flywheel, but the engine is definitely a GM.
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just curious
http://madison.craigslist.org/boa/4366028770.html (http://madison.craigslist.org/boa/4366028770.html)
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Got some info on that 3.0 i posted pics of
It's a Gm 3.0 industrial mercruiser engine for a generstor, that has fuel injection, however, it only puts out 85hp at 3000 rpm, if i read the specs correctly, and is setup for close cooling,
Don't think it is going to work without some modifications to bring the hp up to 135 at the prop
And besides that i am broke:)
What is y'all opinion of that type of engine?
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I think that motor would be a bigger headache than it's worth. Keep looking. The one in Madison is promising though. Don't forget to look for donor boats as well. A lot of time you can make your money back on trailer and other parts.
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Hi!
thought I would update this thread with my next test...I would appreciate your opinions on this testing method. I am not sure if it will work.... If it does, I will know if I have an internal cracked block? Then I will test the head, and have an idea for that...
I am testing the engine block water jackets. I hope this works...
I removed the upper water pump hose from the t-stat housing "Red Arrow"
I then got approximately 1 3/4 gallons of water, dyed it " Dark Blue".
I then poured it into the engine block via the water pump hose, " Blue Arrow pointing to Blue Water I put In The Hose", until the hose filled within about 3'' from the top.
I then put the hose back on the t-stat housing, and barely tightened the clamp.
Now my theory is...with that amount of " Dark Blue" water, and the amount of pressure it has in the entire block, I should know if I have a cracked block, when I remove the oil drain plug....I hope I don't see any " Dark Blue" water pour out of that opening...keeping my fingers crossedXXXXXX on this one
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/2014-04-01-20-00-12_zpsknn2dbfk.jpg)
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ok, gurus....I let the dark blue dyed water sit in the block for a couple of days. I finally got around to seeing if I had any amount of dyed water in the oil pan...I did not have any in the oil pan.
I then decided to remove the head, even though I just put a new head gasket on. I wanted to pressure test the head anyways, and while it is off, I can look at the new used gasket, maybe some clues there also....
Well, here are a few pics of what I saw...once I removed the head, nearly every threaded hole that the head bolts go into, was weeping, or even more than weeping. The gasket was really wet around those holes...all the areas the gasket that look like they are wet, well they are. I did use permatex Thread Sealant with PTFE...was that not correct to use for the head bolts, water is still in the block, not sure if you can see it in the threaded head bolt holes, but they are full to the top
I would like opinions please, and again thanks!
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0403141552a_zpsz1fdu1ay.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0403141548a_zpsimjcantu.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0403141547a_zpsvncnuja9.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0403141551_zpsxygiy2dp.jpg)
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I hate to say it, but it looks to me like #1 and #3 might have an issue in picture 1 of your head. The reason I think this is the 140 I am currently building had a cracked head when I tore it down and it looks the same. You might have the head checked out before you put it back on.
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I hate to say it, but it looks to me like #1 and #3 might have an issue in picture 1 of your head. The reason I think this is the 140 I am currently building had a cracked head when I tore it down and it looks the same. You might have the head checked out before you put it back on.
thanks for your input. I am used to seeing clean shinny valves and piston tops with a head and gasket problem. I will have that head checked out for sure. I was thinking I didn't put enough thread sealant on the head bolts, and still maybe is an issue also...never had that problem working on other head gasket replacements
this engine has a surprise around every corner...lol
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Honestly, at this point I would tear the block down, take it in and have it and all the other internals checked out and gone through. With my 140 its the best $1800 I have spent.
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Those head bolts may actually be tapped into a water passage. That might be normal. I have seen it on other motors. Technically if water did leak past the bolt the head gasket should seal and trap it. Maybe Brandon can see if his is the same.
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Honestly, at this point I would tear the block down, take it in and have it and all the other internals checked out and gone through.
I agree.
Those head bolts may actually be tapped into a water passage. That might be normal. I have seen it on other motors. Technically if water did leak past the bolt the head gasket should seal and trap it.
I agree, again.
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I agree...
thanks for the input. I appreciate it
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Those head bolts may actually be tapped into a water passage. That might be normal. I have seen it on other motors. Technically if water did leak past the bolt the head gasket should seal and trap it. Maybe Brandon can see if his is the same.
Yes, the head bolts do go into the water jacket. My new bolts have a white sealant on the threads.
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Those head bolts may actually be tapped into a water passage. That might be normal. I have seen it on other motors. Technically if water did leak past the bolt the head gasket should seal and trap it. Maybe Brandon can see if his is the same.
Yes, the head bolts do go into the water jacket. My new bolts have a white sealant on the threads.
Yes they do. I just had someone mention that the gasket is wet around where the head bolts were, because i removed them, and the water pressure in the block, pushed water up through the holes and under the gasket...make sense to me. I got all worried about it, and should have thought about that myself
Too much going on in my head
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Well, it took me a long time....but I have just determined I have an internal crack in the block....I eliminated the head as the problem, pressure tested both separately
But on the other hand, I have learned a lot about this Mercruiser, thanks to all the input I have received from this forum.
I am going to relax, do some yard work, take the wife out to dinner, and work on other parts of the boat, while I same for an engine...
thanks to all for the help....I will close this thread now because I accomplished what I set out to do...
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Well don't disappear entirely, we all want to hear how you make out with the boat when you do get it all back together.
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Take the block and have it checked out for sure heck have both the head and the block checked out they can fix a crack they did on mine and only cost a couple hundred more.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
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Dewayne, I'm going back to work (limited schedule) tomorrow, let me talk to the machine shop foreman there and see what he can come up with okay!? He may know where you could pick up a used or reconditioned block for a reasonable price, and he also has a pretty good rapport with the guys at Dover in Atl.. As Brandon said they can often repair what you've got at very reasonable $. I'll send you a text or call later today, don't throw in the towel yet!
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Dewayne, I'm going back to work (limited schedule) tomorrow, let me talk to the machine shop foreman there and see what he can come up with okay!? He may know where you could pick up a used or reconditioned block for a reasonable price, and he also has a pretty good rapport with the guys at Dover in Atl.. As Brandon said they can often repair what you've got at very reasonable $. I'll send you a text or call later today, don't throw in the towel yet!
thanks Mark
I am planing my next move, and that is to put the engine back on the stand, once I get my new hydraulic 8 ton long ram jack replaced. That went out on me too, seals went bad, cost more for the rebuild kit, than it does to just buy another.
I want to turn the engine over on the stand, with my block off plate still in place on the engine, and the pan removed.
I want to pressure test the block, and maybe I can see where the location of that crack is. I have been using dark dyed water so I hopefully it will be easy to spot. I am curious...
thanks again Mark, for taking the time to respond, and offer some assistance.
in the mean time I will work on the other parts of the boat, that need attention
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Take the block and have it checked out for sure heck have both the head and the block checked out they can fix a crack they did on mine and only cost a couple hundred more.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
thanks for the input:)
I did and inspection on a structure last week for a man that owns a welding shop. He and I were talking and got on my boat engine subject. I asked " If i had an internally crack in the block can it be welded?" he said "yes, but! only a select few can cold weld cast iron, and I am one of them"
I will see him again this week, he has one more inspection to get through before I can release him to occupy his new structure. I will also talk to him about my block
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Well, yet again another update. I was able to put the engine back on the stand, and remove the pan. I left the block off and head installed so I can continue to pressurize the block, and see where that crack is
here is what I discovered...time to start looking for an used engine
http://youtu.be/ssQlo3o2FRc (http://youtu.be/ssQlo3o2FRc)
and the crank bearings are toast
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0412141140c_zpsjqwmkesz.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0412141140b_zpsxbubyjgl.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0412141140a_zpsriwg11lz.jpg)
(http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr310/buckz6319/0412141140_zpslrxb7fyr.jpg)
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Well at least you can feel satisfied you found the source. This thread will be very valuable in the future for people hunting down the source of milky oil. Yep, time to start looking for a new motor.
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Well at least you found it.
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
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yes, I feel good that I found it also...:)
thanks again for all the help:).
I have disassembled the entire engine today, nothing left but an empty block!
I needed to take out some frustrations lol
I will be working another engine this coming weekend for a friend. I will be replacing the head gasket, timing chain, ect, ect.. on a 2004 Ecotec 2.2 double OHV, has a misfire in cylinder 3. I have narrowed it down to a possible burnt exhaust valve, cracked head, warped head....we shall see
I will make some decent cash from the repair, and will put that towards another engine
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Those ecotecs have timing chain issues. Make sure it's nice and tight and guides are not broken.
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Those ecotecs have timing chain issues. Make sure it's nice and tight and guides are not broken.
yes, I know, and thanks for the heads up:) they also have TTY bolts. I hope I don't break one off, that would be bad luck
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I admire your persistence Dewayne. An unfortunate out come in any case.
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I admire your persistence Dewayne. An unfortunate out come in any case.
thank you!
I am now probably going to sell parts from this engine, to help me with a purchase on another
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Well, if you want to sell the ignition system off it let me know.
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Well, if you want to sell the ignition system off it let me know.
I'm interested. I just purchased a new cap and rotor, still in the box.
let me know all the parts you need, then pm me with an offer. I will respond and maybe we can work out something
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Just an update
I have almost finished my side job, of repairing his daughters car. It has been a big job, total head rebuild, new timing set, water pump, tty bolts and various other parts
Anyways, when finished, and everything works as it should
I will have som cash to put todards another enging:)
Getting closer....
Have a great day everyone
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Money to feed your addiction !
LOL
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Money to feed your addiction !
LOL
lol...you can see the excitement in my spelling :)