Minnesota Classic Glastron Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rosscoe on July 06, 2013, 08:28:10 AM
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Got out in the V175 for the first time this season and 2nd time ever yesterday. Engine started good. Headed out across the lake and pushed the throttle up approaching 4K rpms. After maybe a minute or less, the engine started stumbling but then came back. I thought I might have accidently hit the control, but then it happened again and this time it died. Took a look under the dog house for anything obvious and found nothing. Fired it up again and slowing started heading back to the landing and it died again. We were on the wavy side of the lake so I dropped anchor and we decided to eat out sandwiches and chips. Started it again and started to head back to the landing again but only made it about 30 feet and it died again. Definitely seemed like a fuel issue so I climbed under the dash and replaced my mini filter. It really didnt look too bad but changed it anyways. Started and ran for a few minutes and died. By this time an older gentleman was down on his dock and waved us over. We were only about 100 feet from shore but the waves were pushing us to his neighbors dock and paddling was futile. Once we reached shore, we just walked it over to his dock and he and his wife help us tie off and use their large fenders from a pontoon boat. I then removed the filter from the carb and it looked pretty clean. Looked for any kinks and found none. Next, I removed the drain plug from the bottom of my Racor filter and let some gas and whatever run out. Looked brownish, like a combination of old gas and rust. Not having found anything obvious, I was concerned about making the run for the landing but did start it and let it run at the dock for about 10 minutes and decided to go for it. The nice people said worse case, we might be able to walk it to the landing along the shore line but of course there were many docks we'd need to go around. No pics were taken due to my rising blood pressure.
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We put on or life jackets in case we had to dive in and keep the boat away from docks etc. Reluctanly untied from their dock and idled away. I wanted to nail it and make as much progress as possible before it died again but chose to idle until I saw the landing, the goosed it so we could coast in if nothing else but it kept running.
Got it loaded on the trailer and I just wanted to run it there with the rear end in the water for awhile. Landing wasn't busy at the time so thats what I did. Revved it up several times but it wanted to push the Montero up the landing so not too much of that. When we got home, decided to pump all the gas (1/2 tank) out with a manual squeeze pump which took forever. Couldnt get a good continuous syphon. Got about 8 gallons out and the gauge said near empty and that was all we could get. My conclusion is a combination of bad old gas and a rusty tank. I do not know what I will do about the tank at this point since the hull would have to be split to get it out or it would need to be cut out which I wouldnt be too crazy about, You know, gas and sparks.
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For the most immediate future, I am going to run it off a portable tank or two and see how it behaves. They are going to take up space in the boat which I do not want so I have to come up with something more permanent fast. Looking at that Kreem coating but I am not sure how I can get the entire inside coated with the tank being where it is plus I'd have to pump that stuff out if it doesnt bond properly. I may contact Tank Renew and see if there is anything they can do with the tank onboard but I doubt it.
If anyone has some suggestions, I'm listening.
I plan on taking some accurate measurements to see if there is ANY WAY to get it out.
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That doesn't sound like fun, Ross.
At least you had docks available to make use off along the shoreline.
If you have a portable tank, I'd definitely use that as a way to isolate the problem. Can you get your fuel line where it connects at the tank? Or will you have to use a separate line from the portable to your motor? If you can use the existing fuel line, and only cut out the tank, if the problem continues then you know the problem is past the tank and your tank is likely ok. If the tank is ok and the problem continues I would probably just replace the fuel line - at roughly $2/foot the whole purchase wouldn't be but $20-$30, and would save a ton of time trying to isolate something in the line - and you'd have that peace of mind moving forward that you have brand new fuel line in.
Sorry to hear about the trouble ...
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All the fuel line in the engine bay is brand new. The original copper line runs up the gunnel to the tank. I've got a rubber line going from my Racor to the fuel pump so I would likely just disconnect at the fuel pump and add the portable tank line there.
I know the tank has rust in it but with 3 filters, I would think it would catch most if not all of the crud. I am thinking it may just all be bad gas. I bought the boat in the spring of 2009 and first ran the boat fall of 2012 but did add about 10 gallons to the tank hoping that would dilute the old gas but even the stuff I added last fall is probably considered "old gas" these days.
Not sure what the proper way of storing these off season. Full tank to maybe retard tank rust or empty it so it isn't old gas come summer time.
I think we may go out tomorrow after Joni gets done with work and I should have a tank or two plumbed in by then. I am chomping at the bit to crank this thing up. It sounded great up at about 4200 for the short time I was there.
Additionally, with the new line, Racor filter, the fuel pump is brand new as is the Carb rebuild and new plugs, wires and Unilite electronic ignition and wiring harness. I am pretty confident it is a fuel issue.
Heading out on someone elses boat (pontoon) today so maybe it will be more relaxing.
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I just worked on a boat for someone with the same issue as you describe. Sounds to me like an ignition coil problem, breaking down under load when hot. I replaced the guy's coil and it runs fine now. Just something to consider if it's not a fuel problem.
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Yea, try a different tank. Seems like you would have a lot more crud in your filters then the way you made it sound for it to be causing the problem. Could also be fuel pump, carb floats, tank vent hose (but I think you corrected this). Could also be ignition. I think you have the Petronix...right?
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Ya I spose it might be ignition/overheated coil, but it couldn't have been all that hot after sandwiches & chips? Think I'd start with isolating the fuel source. Lot cheaper ...
Fwiw there isn't a mass produced fuel filter finer than about 10 microns. You need one about 2 microns to trap rust.
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As always. I appreciate the input.
Technically its a Mallory Unilite ignition so I guess a Petronix facsimile? And its never been run (other then being started briefly on the trailer) until this day. The coil is also brand new and not run until now but I suppose it could be bad. Anything is possible. I did end up breaking off one of the cheesey brass or copper studs on it when installing but there were enough threads to get the nut on.
For right now I am going with the fuel. At least half of what was in the tank was a minimum of 3 years old and it looked like 2 stroke gas when siphoned out.
Its weird that it ran great after leaving the dock we were at but I was hesitant to speed up as I didn't want to paddle or get out and pull it to shore but once close enough, I did nail it (partially because I was PO'd) and wanted to coast in.
Gas first, then on from there. Really wish there was someone around me that could be a "support" boat but I know it inside and out and think if it happens again, I'll get back to shore one way or the other.
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Ross - I feel you in the isolated department.
My only friends with a boat out here are only on the lake 3 or 4 times a year & the boat stays in storage, never at the house.
I did get stuck once (spun prop that came with the boat), about a hundred yards from the ramp. Hooked my anchor up to the longest rope I had on board (50 ft) and flung it out as far as I could. Let it hit bottom and pulled myself gently towards the anchor. Pulled it up quickly and hauled it right back out - made it about 10 feet for each fling of the anchor - one of them took my fingernail with it. Finally got close enough that some fisherman offered to cast past me, let me grab his line, and I connected two of my ropes together, put his hook through the end of one rope, he reeled in my rope and pulled me the rest of the way.
I hope you get it figured out. We are just now feeling pretty confident in our mechanical soundness to be out alone. Good luck.
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Planned on getting out today but the weather turned crappy by the time Joni got home from work. I'm going to take my old coil with when we go out, just in case. I'll be running a remote tank with fresh gas. I am thinking now, bad gas wouldn't cause this as Rich alluded to. I think it would keep running but run lousy?
I may have to start thinking about a contingency plan. (reinstall Merc on the V163) but the ways things are going, I am leaning more towards not going to the meet if I don't get this running right. I wanted to take it last year and it just didn't work out. I still have some time. Haven't made my reservations for slip and camping yet.
No job prospects either. That isn't helping things. :(
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Ross - The remote tank sounds like a good idea. I'm no marine trouble shooting expert but seems like if it was starving for fuel it would lose power and then die. The way you described it sounds like it just cuts out which leads to me to believe spark/ignition. But who knows.
Hope ypu get it running for the meet regardless. I know you have put a lot of time and money into that boat and i'm sure your tired of working on it and ready to start enjoying it.
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Just a WAG, but I think your Racor filter is doing what it is designed to do, remove water. see what happens. If it runs bad dump the filter again. You can't get rust out of the tank without pulling it, but I think it might just be water.
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Made it back to the lake tonight with a remote tank and fresh gas. Lake was like glass. Motor fired right up and left the dock. Decided to stay close to the landing, just in case. Sure enough, within about 10 minutes it died. Probably running around 2k rpm. That doesn't seem to matter. Dies at any speed. Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't a resistors resistance change when heated? It felt hot to me. Its mounted right to the intake. I thought I would remove it from that heat source but found out it is grounded when bolted down so it wasn't starting with that unbolted. Hooked it back up after letting it sit for about 10 minutes. Poked around with my meter. 12V at the coil. Coil felt cool to the touch.
I did check the resistance of the ballast resistor and got about .2 ohms but being that it is in the circuit that didn't tell me squat. Is there a way to test a coil besides replacing it? Unfortunately, I threw away my old one which I RARELY do. If I buy another, I am pretty sure they won't let me return it since a person could burn it out. I don't get it if it is the coil. Its brand new and supposed to be a good match to the ballast resistor and Unilite ignition. I'll have to find my notes on the required resistance if I buy another coil.
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As far as I know the ballast is not grounded to the engine, or at least not supposed to be. It should be in-line with the 12v feed from the key switch. The coil should be of the type that requires an external resistor. The ballast is going to get hot when in use but I don't think it would get so hot that you couldn't touch it. It only has to absorb a couple so the coil doesn't burn up. I have seen new coils that were bad right out of the box and would fail exactly in the same manner as yours. Not sure if there's a way to test the coil other than a resistance test but when the problem is intermittent it's probably going to read OK before it fails.
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Right, intermittent. Do you think I would see some odd resistive behavior if I ran it with my meter on it?
I suppose I could have damaged it when I broke that stud off. We talked about that back then. Might have to spring for another and chalk this up as a POS.
I wonder if the guys at the auto place will know what I am talking about when I mention a ballast resistor and the coil needing to be of such an ohm reading (cant remember if its greater then 4 or less than 4 ohms). Suppose I could just check it on the spot before I buy it? I DO NOT want to get another online for this reason.
I guess in some ways I am glad its not the fuel and the whole tank removal fiasco might be able to wait.
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Like Rich said, ballast resistors don't require grounding.
I have two MerCruiser V8's here with point ignitions, they both have coils that worked when they were pulled out. you're welcome to borrow one of both of them and the ballast resistors that are with them if you want to troubleshoot it that way.
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I use coils with internal resistance. They don't use a ballast resistor. Just one less thing to deal with.
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I use coils with internal resistance. They don't use a ballast resistor. Just one less thing to deal with.
I agree. Go this route. Sounds like your ballast and/or coil are cooked. I must have a dozen coils from derby cars you could try/have. Not sure how to tell if they are internally resisted or not. Is it suppose to say on coil?
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The resistor is a wire coil the heats up under a 12V load reducing the out-put voltage to 6V, those coils are designed to operate on 6 volts, running them on 12V will produce more spark, for a while, but it will cause them to over-heat and produce intermittant fire, and eventually just quit. Back in the day, when those coils were installed with an external resistor, you would find another wire from the starter solnoid that would sent 12V to the coil to produce more fire just to start the engine, but the engine would run on the 6V thru the resistor after it started. I use the coils that don't require a resistor also, and electronic ignition, if the coil requires an external resistor, it is normaly stated in print on the side of the coil, but that may not be stated on a coil with an internal resistor, but thats something you need to be aware of.
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From what I found out, Ford ignition coils after 1975 are internally resisted. I know i have some of these if you want one. We could maybe met up at a lake tomorrow evening. I'll bring a tow boat....just in case!
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Chrysler started using ballast resistors when they went to 12 Volt back in 1957. It was to lower the voltage to the points so they wouldn't pit. Ford and GM used a resistant wire to the coil. I'm not sure with solid state ignition it makes much difference. i have never seen a coil go bad, and then get good again. If you have an Ohm reading between the small terminals, and a reading between a small terminal and the center wire it should be good. If you know you're loosing spark (not fuel) I would be looking at the ign module. That may also require lower voltage to it, and if you rewired it you may have too much voltage to the module causing it to heat up and quit.
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Well now I a really confused as to what to do next.
Concerning the Unilite electronic conversion I added and whether a resistor was needed, this is what I was told by Prestolite.
The following request has been updated: Click Here to view online
Electronic conversion-Mallory
Assigned:...............Ron Sims
Priority:..................Normal
Requester:..............Ross LaBelle
Status:....................New
Category:................Regular Question
Total Hours:.............0
Last Updated By:......Could Not Authenticate, View Ticket For User Info
COMMENTS:
Jim Sacco
Hours: 0 Commented On 9/16/2011 8:07:40 AM
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Ross, The part number for the conversion kit is 559. It does require a primary resistance of 1.4 Ohms with a ballast resister and a coil as preferred or with a coil alone.
Thank you.
Ross LaBelle
Hours: 0 Commented On 9/16/2011 7:22:40 AM
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Hi I hope I am not duplicating this ticket but I think the last one didnt go through. Anyways I am looking for the correct electronic ignition conversion kit for my Mallory Marine distributor model YL520EV flat top. This is installed in a boat 350 chev with Berkeley Jet. JEGS thought it might be 650-559 but suggested I contact you to verify.. Thank you. Ross
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I did manage to get back to the landing last night after letting it sit awhile. Then I made a B-line
Jason, you'd be more then welcome to come along and you shouldnt need to bring a boat. I dont go out that far while this is happening.
I've attached documents from both the Unilite ignition conversion and the coil. The reason I replaced the old ballast resistor (or kept one at all) is because of the part where they state "reliability improves...."
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Or just put in a HEI for $40 and be done with it. I think I have one of these in the garage you can have too.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PH-SBC-BBC-CHEVY-V8-350-383-HEI-DISTRIBUTOR-WITH-65-K-COIL-WPM-HEI-350-BK-/190867455192?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c70963cd8&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PH-SBC-BBC-CHEVY-V8-350-383-HEI-DISTRIBUTOR-WITH-65-K-COIL-WPM-HEI-350-BK-/190867455192?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c70963cd8&vxp=mtr)
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t124/lincolnman1969/misc/Capture_zpsf217be17.jpg) (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/lincolnman1969/media/misc/Capture_zpsf217be17.jpg.html)
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The resistor is a wire coil the heats up under a 12V load reducing the out-put voltage to 6V, those coils are designed to operate on 6 volts, running them on 12V will produce more spark, for a while, but it will cause them to over-heat and produce intermittant fire, and eventually just quit. Back in the day, when those coils were installed with an external resistor, you would find another wire from the starter solnoid that would sent 12V to the coil to produce more fire just to start the engine, but the engine would run on the 6V thru the resistor after it started. I use the coils that don't require a resistor also, and electronic ignition, if the coil requires an external resistor, it is normaly stated in print on the side of the coil, but that may not be stated on a coil with an internal resistor, but thats something you need to be aware of.
Red so are you saying if things are wired right, I should see 12v on one side of the resistor and 6 on the other as well as at the coil?
I was reading 12v (key on) at the coil last night and didn't check the voltage at the resistor.
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Or just put in a HEI for $40 and be done with it. I think I have one of these in the garage you can have too.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PH-SBC-BBC-CHEVY-V8-350-383-HEI-DISTRIBUTOR-WITH-65-K-COIL-WPM-HEI-350-BK-/190867455192?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c70963cd8&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PH-SBC-BBC-CHEVY-V8-350-383-HEI-DISTRIBUTOR-WITH-65-K-COIL-WPM-HEI-350-BK-/190867455192?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c70963cd8&vxp=mtr)
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t124/lincolnman1969/misc/Capture_zpsf217be17.jpg) (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/lincolnman1969/media/misc/Capture_zpsf217be17.jpg.html)
I've got several hundred into this set up and don't really want to give up yet.
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The resistor is a wire coil the heats up under a 12V load reducing the out-put voltage to 6V, those coils are designed to operate on 6 volts, running them on 12V will produce more spark, for a while, but it will cause them to over-heat and produce intermittant fire, and eventually just quit. Back in the day, when those coils were installed with an external resistor, you would find another wire from the starter solnoid that would sent 12V to the coil to produce more fire just to start the engine, but the engine would run on the 6V thru the resistor after it started. I use the coils that don't require a resistor also, and electronic ignition, if the coil requires an external resistor, it is normaly stated in print on the side of the coil, but that may not be stated on a coil with an internal resistor, but thats something you need to be aware of.
Red so are you saying if things are wired right, I should see 12v on one side of the resistor and 6 on the other as well as at the coil?
I was reading 12v (key on) at the coil last night and didn't check the voltage at the resistor.
it wont read 6v with the key on, and not running as there is no current flowing through the coil.
the mallory will only ground the neg side of the coil when the motor is cranking or running.
on a points set up, it would read aprox 6v with the key on if the points were closed.
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No points Joe.
Thats the problem...if I knew what I was supposed to be reading, where and when, it would help. ;D
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So Rich, would you start with a coil swap? I think we may be installing one of Jason's spares tomorrow night and make a run to the lake.
Lots of different opinions on this but I am at a loss with stuff being new and if I wired something wrong, I wouldn't think it would even start!
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So Rich, would you start with a coil swap? I think we may be installing one of Jason's spares tomorrow night and make a run to the lake.
Lots of different opinions on this but I am at a loss with stuff being new and if I wired something wrong, I wouldn't think it would even start!
It takes all of 5 minutes to swap out the coil. If it works then you've isolated your problem. One thing I have found out about installing a Pertronix ignition sensor in the distributor is not to wire the positive wire from the sensor to the positive terminal of the coil, the voltage drop from the ballast resistor could cause problems with keeping the engine running especially if other items in the boat are taking power. When I first installed mine I had it wired that way and the engine would almost stall if I operated the trim pump, too much power draw away from the ignition sensor. So, I wired the sensor's positive wire to a point in the circuit before the ballast so it gets the full 12v rather than the reduced voltage. The other wiring to the coil remained the same.
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Ross, I had a busy evening but will look at your pictures. I think we should meet up tomorrow somewhere in between hudson and your place. Maybe 6??? You pick. I'll bring the CV16SS too (it needs to get used anyway!) I'll bring a coil. Might even bring an HEI from an old derby car and a timing light. Maybe it's still fuel problems for all we know. Was that carb ever gone through? Can't remember.
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Right, easy swap.
Yes the carb was freshly rebuilt last fall.
Are you thinking the river?
We'll talk tomorrow. I think I might prefer a lake due to current but we'll see.
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Yes lake. Or maybe Stillwater ramp on st. Croix. Current not bad there.
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Your wiring looks like you got it right and I don't see any grounding on the ballast as talked about earlier. Sure seems like either a coil or module problem. Like I mentioned a few times. I had problems with the Pertronix unit. I know this is a different brand. Just saying.....I wouldn't be surprised.
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Isn't the St. Croix all No wake?
Otherwise if we go on the river, I'd suggest the ramp north of Stillwater just north of Wolf's marine?
I am not familiar with any lakes around there but I'll look this morning.
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The St. Corix no wake has been removed. Water levels are down. I am just not sure if the ramp is under water there ot not. Not sure how steep of a ramp it is.
Maybe Big Carnelian Lake? Never been there. looks nice. Here is the boat ramp.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=stillwater+mn&ll=45.130495,-92.817467&spn=0.00369,0.008256&hnear=Stillwater,+Washington,+Minnesota&gl=us&t=h&z=18
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Never been there either. Looks good to me. Landing has a dock and looks like somewhere to beach if necessary.
6:00PM?
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I'll throw my experience in here, maybe it'll help, maybe not. I tried running the original Thunderbolt (external coil with electronic pickup distributor) on my stroker. Lots of people swear by them. I had ALL of the exact same symptoms, and every other part of the motor and fuel system were new. I worked through fuel tank and fuel pickup, bypassed fuel pump with electric, had the new carb apart at least five times adjusting float levels, checking fuel levels, so on and so on. Took the distributor apart twice, switched it with another and had it apart twice as well, and switched coils back and forth with each distributor. Always the same issue you are having, regardless of what I changed. I went to Pep Boys, spent $130 on the MSD Street Fire HEI style electronic distributor. One wire. Fixed. Not just fixed, but WAY more power, throttle response, and much better idle and starting, compared to the other setup on it's best day. I know you have alot invested, but there is an example of things I tried with no results. Maybe you can get your money back? Or maybe you can ebay it. Try the HEI that was offered, even stock they are pretty good units. Might be a fast solution to get back to boating. Like I said, some people swear by the external coil setups of all different kinds, and that's great if that's what they like, but I'll never do anything other than an HEI style again. Too simple and too reliable for me to bother risking it.
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Had a little bit different results today but I also never saw what happened the first time. Tried different coils and ballast resistor with no change in results. Seems to always be getting spark even after it kills. So here is what happens. Take off with a little hesitation from idle. Runs fine for a couple minutes, lots of power and sounds nice. Then this rattle noise pops up. Hard to hear where its coming from with the cover on but definitely in the motor. Maybe a valve tick or lifter. Then it loses power and will come to an idle and sometimes kill. But will fire right up. Does not really seem like ignition. If it were, I would say that module but it just seems to me like the carb is not dialed in and that rattle is a completely different issue. Think the rattle could be some kind of detonation?
71 Glastron V175 jet 350 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVaHqiqqitk#ws)
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I have to say I love this boat though. Power is good and it handles really nice. Turns sharp. Will be a really fun boat once the motor is dialed in!
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Yes its really odd. Had a few backfires tonight too which I had heard before. Also at one point while running the throttle up it would bog and the rpms would not increase, then a short time later, it would quit or nearly quit on occasion.
Wex, sounds like you tried everything too. That HEI you installed, I don't imagine its marine and not sure it matters?
So they have no coils and extra garbage huh?
Earlier I thought to myself that if we don't find anything tonight, its going into a Marine shop but at a couple hundred an hour and have them go through the same routine, replacing the whole distributor might be the way to go. Pretty disgusted right now.
On the upside, I got a ride in Jason's sweet CV! Unfortunately, my use of the video on my phone leaves a lot to be desired. So much so that I didn't get any. :P
BTW I do have an HEI, vintage, I don't know, nor what the condition of it is or how to wire it in. Came with the 350 I have in the boat.
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So that is the issue at 45 seconds into the video ?
hard to say not being there but it sure seems like a fuel issue.
i have put in a temporary fuel pr gauge for testing.
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So that is the issue at 45 seconds into the video ?
hard to say not being there but it sure seems like a fuel issue.
i have put in a temporary fuel pr gauge for testing.
It actually started a few seconds before that when I could tell there was a loss of power and that another dying session was about to start, although this time it didn't actually quit. Earlier we were just idling and it died.
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So that is the issue at 45 seconds into the video ?
hard to say not being there but it sure seems like a fuel issue.
i have put in a temporary fuel pr gauge for testing.
It actually started a few seconds before that when I could tell there was a loss of power and that another dying session was about to start, although this time it didn't actually quit. Earlier we were just idling and it died.
Your problem sounds like what my V195 was doing. I would run fine but then it was like you just shut it off. It would start right back up no problem though. That is my next project. And a noise in the gimbal area on that one too I love boats! I love boats! I love boats!
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Rosscoe,
The HEI setups are self contained, coil is built into the cap. Some may argue this, and experience varies, but they are advertised to have alot more spark throughout the rpm range, and don't fall off at higher rpms, in any application that applies to us anyway. This has been my experience every time in straight swaps changing nothing but distributor. Always a very noticeable difference just in all around running. You may have to adjust idle and idle mixture to adjust for the better burn. Again, I can't guarantee this is your fix, but man does it sound familiar! You could put a clear fuel filter at the carb, run it till your issue arises, immediately shut it down and check the filter. If there's fuel, can't imagine how it would be a fuel issue. And no, it's not a marine setup, but you could seal the vent better or tap in a vent hose to route elsewhere, but all the performance boat sites literally have hundreds of guys running street setups without issue. Doran I believe is running something very similar with great success.
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Rosscoe,
The HEI setups are self contained, coil is built into the cap. Some may argue this, and experience varies, but they are advertised to have alot more spark throughout the rpm range, and don't fall off at higher rpms, in any application that applies to us anyway. This has been my experience every time in straight swaps changing nothing but distributor. Always a very noticeable difference just in all around running. You may have to adjust idle and idle mixture to adjust for the better burn. Again, I can't guarantee this is your fix, but man does it sound familiar! You could put a clear fuel filter at the carb, run it till your issue arises, immediately shut it down and check the filter. If there's fuel, can't imagine how it would be a fuel issue. And no, it's not a marine setup, but you could seal the vent better or tap in a vent hose to route elsewhere, but all the performance boat sites literally have hundreds of guys running street setups without issue. Doran I believe is running something very similar with great success.
I have a non marine HEI on my 18
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My current relic is vented anyways. It has a small screen on the base.
Man I am just not sure which way to go. Sometimes it seems like a fuel issue and other electrical!
If the electronic module is at fault, even being new, I have no idea as to how to check it if its breaking down or whats going on.
130.00 is cheaper than taking to a Marine mechanic.
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So that is the issue at 45 seconds into the video ?
hard to say not being there but it sure seems like a fuel issue.
i have put in a temporary fuel pr gauge for testing.
It actually started a few seconds before that when I could tell there was a loss of power and that another dying session was about to start, although this time it didn't actually quit. Earlier we were just idling and it died.
Your problem sounds like what my V195 was doing. I would run fine but then it was like you just shut it off. It would start right back up no problem though. That is my next project. And a noise in the gimbal area on that one too I love boats! I love boats! I love boats!
Money pits for me.
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Rosscoe,
The HEI setups are self contained, coil is built into the cap. Some may argue this, and experience varies, but they are advertised to have alot more spark throughout the rpm range, and don't fall off at higher rpms, in any application that applies to us anyway. This has been my experience every time in straight swaps changing nothing but distributor. Always a very noticeable difference just in all around running. You may have to adjust idle and idle mixture to adjust for the better burn. Again, I can't guarantee this is your fix, but man does it sound familiar! You could put a clear fuel filter at the carb, run it till your issue arises, immediately shut it down and check the filter. If there's fuel, can't imagine how it would be a fuel issue. And no, it's not a marine setup, but you could seal the vent better or tap in a vent hose to route elsewhere, but all the performance boat sites literally have hundreds of guys running street setups without issue. Doran I believe is running something very similar with great success.
Anything special info they are going to require to get me one that will work or "just give me one that fits a dang 350!"
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I have the MSD Streetfire on my CVZ as well.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-LqY9g9zXfmM/S-4O8e4dwWI/AAAAAAAAHEk/lrJ2QHB5cIg/s640/P5140176.JPG)
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Argh MORE new plug wires!
I wonder if I can take back my new accel wires.
Easy to wire D?
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Argh MORE new plug wires!
I wonder if I can take back my new accel wires.
Easy to wire D?
I have plug wires you can have. They just are not pretty like Doran's!
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Looking at the Streetfire on MSD's web site and it shows a rotor, so these still have parts that need to be replaced as opposed to the optical setup I have now? I guess technically mine does have a rotor.
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sounds like i wont cost anything to test with an hei from Jason, just do that and prove that it is, or is not Ignition.
when are you going to test next ?
maybe we could have a mini-meet
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I have an HEI but not sure of the condition. I think Jasons might be Ford style?
I'd have to get it installed (correctly) and wired. I've only pulled a dist. once before.
Here is what I have.
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piece of cake, make sure rotor is pointing same as it was on the old one, 1 wire (hot from ig sw)
you will need to put different wires on, if you have the set that came off the motor, or a set from Jason, i may have a set here.
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I'm thinking this would be the easiest and cheapest thing to do first. If its the distributor, then I think I would replace this one with an MSD.
Maybe I can clean up the innards a little.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/370774786067?item=370774786067&viewitem=&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/370774786067?item=370774786067&viewitem=&vxp=mtr)
Looking at this one on Ebay too. On one hand they make it sound 100% complete, then in the install instructions it says
on GM HEI distributors, it will also be necessary to transfer the coil and coil cover from the old cap to the new one).
I've tried calling several times and no answer.
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That almost seems like "too good of a price" for a complete unit.
also, it would be fine for testing, but i think marine engines typically use only mechanical advance
may be ok to just leave the vac disconnected ??
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Yeah I dont know about that stuff. My HEI has a vacuum thingy sticking out too. Maybe it can be plugged?
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That almost seems like "too good of a price" for a complete unit.
also, it would be fine for testing, but i think marine engines typically use only mechanical advance
may be ok to just leave the vac disconnected ??
Mine was plugged from HEI and was left that way by the engine builder. I was told that I didn't need it.
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Doran while you're online can you tell me about a mobile app for cgoamn?
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tapatalk?
Ask Terry_Curran...he LOVES the reminder, each and every time, he visits the forum on his iPad. :D
Honestly, its a very nice app for navigating through the forums on a phone or smaller device. If you have a larger screened iPad/Android tablet, I'd say its 50/50 on whether you need it or not...but on a smartphone, its well worth the cost.
Essentially, the plugin that supports it, is free for our site, they make money by selling the app to, you, the users. There's no kickback to the club/site or anything like that...
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Posting photos is a breeze, replies, viewing unread threads, etc, etc...all works really well with it.
Much easier than all the browser resizing, scrolling, etc, that you have to do when viewing the forums on a phone browser.
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i use that on my iphone, i like it, and think its worth it.
only issue i ever have is sometime the CGOTD thread don't load, i assume its something to do with the pictures.
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Turns out my HEI is out of a 86 Buick with the Buick 307 which is different. and it has a computer controlled advance so won't work in his motor. I think all Ross needs is a rotor and some plug wires and he is ready for testing. The rotor in mine would likely work in his. I know for sure the wires will.
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i use that on my iphone, i like it, and think its worth it.
only issue i ever have is sometime the CGOTD thread don't load, i assume its something to do with the pictures.
It is exactly that Joe, I believe its a Tapatalk iPhone app issue...as its come up before. I can't get it to replicate on my android any more...but it used to happen.
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tapatalk?
Ask Terry_Curran...he LOVES the reminder, each and every time, he visits the forum on his iPad. :D
Honestly, its a very nice app for navigating through the forums on a phone or smaller device. If you have a larger screened iPad/Android tablet, I'd say its 50/50 on whether you need it or not...but on a smartphone, its well worth the cost.
Essentially, the plugin that supports it, is free for our site, they make money by selling the app to, you, the users. There's no kickback to the club/site or anything like that...
So its not free...
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Right...its free for the forum to support Tapatalk, but not free for you as a user...they've got to earn a living too. There's a 'Public Beta' version out there right now that IS free (for Android devices)...but it will be pulled eventually. Might be worth trying?
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tapatalk.tapatalk4&feature=more_from_developer#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEwMiwiY29tLnRhcGF0YWxrLnRhcGF0YWxrNCJd (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tapatalk.tapatalk4&feature=more_from_developer#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEwMiwiY29tLnRhcGF0YWxrLnRhcGF0YWxrNCJd)
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Yes I need to earn a living to. I do not do windows :P
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Rosscoe,
If you still want to eliminate the fuel delivery as an issue you could try the clear gas filter near the carb. But if you do end up going with the HEI, don't forget to hit it with a timing light when all is said and done, and, Doran will have to talk you through the detent switch wiring. I didn't use it on my stroker because the cam was real lumpy at idle and I could set my idle very low with no issues, so mine went in and out of gear no problem. A stock cam at 800 rpm will probably slam into gear, and also may not want to release into neutral easily. That can be hard on an outdrive. I'd surely recommend using the detent switch.
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Yup, re-time for sure.
Detent switch? This must have to do with neutral-reverse?
This is a jet so really no "mechanical" gear changing if I am understanding you.
Decided to try the HEI I have and go from there. I need to buy a rotor and borrow wires. If problem persists, I may put my old Mallory with Unilite ignition back in and chase the gas issue.
The more I think about this I just go back and forth between electronic and gas. On that video, it started to poop out, then I throttled back and it stayed running, but as I have said before, its died just idling in one place. Just like turning the ignition off.
I need to bone up on pulling and installing a distributor. Its been a long time but you used to have to get #1 on compression stroke, but I've heard just install it in the same position as the one removed. I know its not difficult but its not something you want to screw up.
I also think I am going to have some interference issues with the HEI and my oil sensor. I'll probably have to change some of the plumping there. That shouldn't cause any issues, should it? is ANYTHING easy? Sinking it to the bottom of a lake might be. :D
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You are correct as long as it is mechanical advance you do not have to put the engine at top of #1 stroke. if it does have vac advance you will have to put it at the top of #1.
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" is ANYTHING easy? Sinking it to the bottom of a lake might be. "
...LOL
When every things sorted out and your blasting across the lake/river you'll be able to laugh about the problems your going through ...
I promise !
Until then... you might have to kick your dog once or twice ....
J/K
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" is ANYTHING easy? Sinking it to the bottom of a lake might be. "
...LOL
When every things sorted out and your blasting across the lake/river you'll be able to laugh about the problems your going through ...
I promise !
Until then... you might have to kick your dog once or twice ....
J/K
Poor Elvis
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That's funny! Elvis kind of looks like a football!
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I had to change my shift plate to make room for the HEI...
Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 4 Beta
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Rosscoe,
Sorry, wasn't paying attention, I was assuming it was an outdrive, disregard all the detent switch talk! My oil pressure sender was on a 45 degree bent tube (factory bent) to get it away from the distributor... should be a fairly easy hardware store find... should be... or be able to piece it together anyway. maybe someone has an extra? fairly common piece.
Doran... shift plate shouldn't be an issue with the jet, right?
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Ah, probably not Wex!
Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 4 Beta
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Rosscoe,
Sorry, wasn't paying attention, I was assuming it was an outdrive, disregard all the detent switch talk! My oil pressure sender was on a 45 degree bent tube (factory bent) to get it away from the distributor... should be a fairly easy hardware store find... should be... or be able to piece it together anyway. maybe someone has an extra? fairly common piece.
Doran... shift plate shouldn't be an issue with the jet, right?
Yup, mines at a 45 or so too. I sure it wont be hard to move.
I'm still kicking around the idea of buying a new china dist. from ebay for 40.00 or buying a rotor for the HEI I have, with not knowing of its even any good. Today I found two of the wires were missing insulation. Too oxidized to solder so I twisted them together and covered them with heat shrink. Guess the cheapest route is to try what I have.
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That's funny! Elvis kind of looks like a football!
He'd make for a heavy football at 16 pounds. Besides, I'd never hurt the little guy.
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Looking at rockauto.com. Looks like they used the same rotor in everything from about the first days of HEI on. So I should have two that will work. I think I have everything you don't.
(http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t124/lincolnman1969/misc/ScreenShot2013-07-11at95227PM_zps33d208ab.png) (http://s159.photobucket.com/user/lincolnman1969/media/misc/ScreenShot2013-07-11at95227PM_zps33d208ab.png.html)
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Awesome! I won't be picking one up tomorrow then. Just need to meet up with you. I'll bring your coil back too.
So who knows about vacuum advance and mechancal advance? I know I do not have vacuum advance but the dist has the vacuum feature (like Dorans). Do I need to do something internally?
I just saw this and it got me wondering.
http://www.northernautoparts.com/ProductModelDetail.cfm?ProductModelId=26045 (http://www.northernautoparts.com/ProductModelDetail.cfm?ProductModelId=26045)
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lock out will be great if you keep the hei, for testing just plug it.
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Ok tried to install the distributor today after some auto repair that had to come first. Do you think I had issues with it? Of course.
The HEI wants to sit about 1/4" higher off the intake then the old Mallory. I tried many times. Compared the HEI in my truck for approx orientation of the dist. body, wires etc. It drops in about where #1 plug would be and thats the best fit. Not sure what's going on now. I measured the overall length of each and they are 7 3/4" but it the "shoulder" is different. Maybe there is supposed to be some kind of shim or spacer under the HEI? The Mallory has a flat step and the HEI is beveled. ??? ???
I'm ready to throw the old one back in and pursue it as a fuel issue again.
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It needs to drop into the oil pump shaft.
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Right. I think the last time I did one of these was about 30 years ago.
That looks like the amount needed. I'll mess with it again tomorrow I suppose.
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Rosscoe,
Don't give up yet! You're real close to eliminating a potential problem. With the help of a light, you should be able to see down to the oil pump position. You can move that to help line it up with the cam gear on the distributor. Keep in mind the center shaft of the distributor is turning while dropping down, so you have to estimate how they will line up. Just keep turning the pump a little each time you drop it in till it fits. And as you probably saw, you need to make sure the rotor is in the right place when the distributor is all the way in. Because the gear splines are angled, you have to start so many degrees off to be lined up when finished... but you probably know that already.
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Rosscoe,
Don't give up yet! You're real close to eliminating a potential problem. With the help of a light, you should be able to see down to the oil pump position. You can move that to help line it up with the cam gear on the distributor. Keep in mind the center shaft of the distributor is turning while dropping down, so you have to estimate how they will line up. Just keep turning the pump a little each time you drop it in till it fits. And as you probably saw, you need to make sure the rotor is in the right place when the distributor is all the way in. Because the gear splines are angled, you have to start so many degrees off to be lined up when finished... but you probably know that already.
Not sure why the mating part would have moved or maybe it didn't? What would be a good tool for changing the position of the oil pump? I have no idea if its easy or difficult to move.
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If I remember correctly you can use a long screwdriver to turn the oil pump
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take the roll pin out of the old distributor, that holds the cam driven gear on, remove that gear and you can put the dist back in and move the oil pump drive any position you need, I also use the same to pump up oil pressure befor I start an engine.
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a screwdriver works fine.
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a screwdriver works fine.
Yes Jerry, but it's easier to position of the rotor when you use an old dist with the rotor on it, just put it where you want it to be, usually pointing it towards #1 spark plug, back it up 1/2" or so, remove it and drop in the new distributor.
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he's only positioning the oil pump shaft.
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he's only positioning the oil pump shaft.
If you do what Red said, it will help line up the oil pump shaft when the distributor is all the way in. The cam gear splines are angled, so when you drop in the distributor, it will turn as it connects with the cam gear. So lining up the pump shaft and the pump linkage won't work. You need to compensate for the "spin" of the shaft as it goes in. You can "trial and error", or, get it close by doing what Red said. He probably has one already made up for this and for priming pumps, so it's a quick deal for him. I think Rosscoe may not want to take his apart, as he may want to go back to the other distributor if the HEI doesn't work out. At least I think he said that, not speaking for him.
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I got it installed, rotated oil pump with a long screw driver. I don't plan on doing this often. That turned out to be the least of my problems today. Not very serious but still additional pain.
Where to start.
Since my front two plugs are behind the exhaust manifolds it would have been tough to get #1 plug out so I thought it would be easier to pull the valve cover to identify TDC. 4 bolts no big deal but I had interference with my homemade dip stick tube. I got the cover off rotated the motor to the compression stroke of #1 and went to reinstall the valve cover but had issues with the dipstick tube again so I had to remove it, then install cover. I spent at least an hour, probably 2, trying to make the stick tube fit. Hammered it as flat as I could so the DS would still slide through. Got that done but am not happy with that long term. I need a flexible tube but they probably dont make such a thing. There is probably 3/16" clearance between my GLM exhaust and the lip of the valve cover, SO I'll be revisiting that. Am I the only one with GLM center rise exhaust and a 350? What do others do? Moved on from that. I needed at least 2 90 degree boots on the HEI plug wires due to plumbing mentioned earlier. I got a slug of them from Jason but all the 90 degree ones were too short. Thought I'd see how my new 70.00 Accel wires would fit the HEI cap. They were a bear to get on the cap and worse to take off. Only tried one and when it pulled out and left the end in the cap. #@!&
I hope I can fix it if I go back to the Mallory flat cap! There is a high probability I will.
So in order to even test this HEI distributor and use the wires available, I am now re-plumbing my exhaust manifolds. Does anyone know if all three ports on the bottom are connected? Right now I have the front ones running up to the thermostat housing and then middle ones as drains. I started tearing that apart now and am either going to move the drains to the furthest back ports, furthest forward or a combo of both and the middle ones for the lines from T stat housing. This will allow for much easier access to the ALL the plugs. If I use the rear ports on the GLM's on the starboard side for the drain, it will be above the starter and I don't really want that. On the port side, the front drain would dump on the alternator. I may go diagonal with them. Of course my current T stat hose is now too short. I have 2 life times supply of hose clamps from all this since this will be the 3rd re-plumb. Maybe I'll throw them on Craigslist. :D
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Next, if the Distributor turns out to not be the culprit, I'm going to plumb in a clear gas filter between the fuel pump and carb or skip that and wire in an electric fuel pump that Jason borrowed me.
If thats not it, I'm pulling the carb again and taking it back to the rebuilder. I'll be nice at first. It has maybe 5 hours on it.
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Wow!
Rosscoe, sorry to hear you are having so much trouble, I'm sure it is very frustrating. Usually when switching distributors, I just find a "landmark" where the rotor is pointing, pull the distributor, and drop in the other with the rotor pointing as close to that as possible, and use the timing light to dial it in (I don't like doing it by ear on boats, too much load at high rpms, timing is a little more critical). Is there any way you can run the wires over or through something (not permanent) to find a shorter distance just so you can try it? I can understand that you wouldn't want to buy a full set of new wires just to test it out. I may be reading it wrong, but it sounds like if you had the right wires with the right ends, you could avoid making all those plumbing changes, or am I misunderstanding? Maybe you can route the wires another way just for a test run, and if your problem is solved, then invest in the right wires. Hate to see you go to all that other trouble.
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Wex I tried running the wires right over the valve covers and they are too short. No ifs ands or buts. No way to get them thru between the exhaust manifolds which is the only shorter route than over the VC. In the long run, redoing the plumbing will be better all around. The center port will be between plugs. Today when I tried to remove #1 plug, I couldn't get a socket or open or box wrench on it.
You know I did manually crank the engine and got the rotor pointing to one before I pulled the Mallory but I still did not know what stroke I was on. Got it seated this morning and after talking to Jeff, I decided to double check and I was 180 degrees off. I am sure you guys that do this stuff frequently know all kinds of tricks and shortcuts but this isn't something I do often.
I'm beginning to think this boat is cursed or someone, somewhere doesn't want me to use it. So many issues. I still have a rusty tank to deal with. Maybe over the winter.
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Well, again, sorry it's being so difficult. And I think anyone will tell you that even daily experience with working on these things will give you some tricks that should speed things up or make them simpler... should. Doesn't always work out that way. In every project boat I've gotten into, there were numerous points where I thought... why? why did I think this was going to be easy? But apparently I'm a slow learner, because I'll jump neck deep into the next stupid idea that comes along!
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Try running a dragster. The first time you fire it is pushing down the fire-up. Get cyl 6 on the valve overlap, (Exhaust closing - intake opening) that's TDC #1.
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh181/50sflash/Email000114.jpg)
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Well, again, sorry it's being so difficult. And I think anyone will tell you that even daily experience with working on these things will give you some tricks that should speed things up or make them simpler... should. Doesn't always work out that way. In every project boat I've gotten into, there were numerous points where I thought... why? why did I think this was going to be easy? But apparently I'm a slow learner, because I'll jump neck deep into the next stupid idea that comes along!
But apparently I'm a slow learner,
LOL, me too and it gets worse as you age. I am relearning stuff I learned 35 years ago.
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Replumbed exhaust to gain better access to front 2 plugs and besides, Dennis Moore recommended it. Had to buy another 5' of 1" hose. Found I had a brand new HEI rotor and put that in the Dist. ran wires, turned key, no start. Sounds like no spark to me. I quit for the day on low note and started looking at getting the E fuel pump ready so IF I got out and IF the dist. was good and had same results, I could plumb it in on the lake but it appears to do that, I need to get barb fittings that fit the carb, (if I remember right, they are an odd thread) remove my hard line, as well as get some more fuel line. I picked up a clear filter to install ahead of the carb but bought one that would fit the size line I have ahead of the fuel pump which is 3/8. Way too big for the E fuel pump fittings and not sure I can reduce the carb that small.
This is bordering on ridiculous. I can not even imagine doing all this stuff if I had a job. Maybe I'm just impatient but doing one thing to see of something else is bad and what I am using might be bad... big waste of time.
Looking for a way to test HEI dist. From what I have seen, its not as easy as just pulling a plug and looking for spark.
So if thi$ di$t is bad I can either replace the whole thing to po$$ibly prove it$ not the Di$t or put my old one in and pur$ue a fuel i$$ue and write off the better part of 2 days of $weating in the $hop and running around $crounging for part$. Rin$e and repeat for tomorrow if I want to change carb and E fuel pump fitting$ Gee, not sure which direction to go now.
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Did you put your timing light on a plug wire to see if you are really not getting spark? I don't know how to test an HEI.
3 psi is not much pressure. Just squeeze a fuel line down on those fittings. Not perfect but will work for testing. I used 3/8 on that pump in the derby cars.
Hopefully you have better luck in the morning. Don't give up!
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No I haven't done that yet. Will look into it more tomorrow. Had enough and decided to cut grass instead!
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At this point I am not sure if I want to waste a bunch of time troubleshooting this distributor which was supposed to be for testing to eliminate the dist. as the problem or put my old Mallory/Unilite back in OR buy an HEI which would be for nothing if it turns out to be fuel.
Cant make a decision on course of action.
Also if I stay with the HEI permanently, I'm going to need power and tack connections. I am seeing 2 different styles on ebay. I need power and tach but I do not know why they'd color the tack wire green?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WIRING-HARNESS-PIGTAIL-SBC-BBC-CHEVY-HEI-DISTRIBUTOR-170072-/200923082833?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2ec7f2f051 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/WIRING-HARNESS-PIGTAIL-SBC-BBC-CHEVY-HEI-DISTRIBUTOR-170072-/200923082833?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2ec7f2f051)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WIRING-HARNESS-PIGTAIL-SBC-BBC-CHEVY-HEI-DISTRIBUTOR-6500-cb-/200923082918?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2ec7f2f0a6 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/WIRING-HARNESS-PIGTAIL-SBC-BBC-CHEVY-HEI-DISTRIBUTOR-6500-cb-/200923082918?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2ec7f2f0a6)
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Ross...
i would really like to help but there's just no time, with all the boating ;)
but seriously, if you want a hand i can help on Sunday afternoon, if you don't have the ig fixed by then we can get that and go to the lake and mess with the other part too, can bring the GT if you don't want to chance paddling.
could do it here or at yer place, i have a small lake right here but not sure if we can get to the launch right now due to construction.
white bear just up the street too.
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Very funny :D
I appreciate the offer and would be willing to pull it to your place.
Sunday would work. I have a wedding to go to on Sat. Hopefully I will not over indulge too much and feel fine Sunday. :P
It has always restarted (so far) so I am not worried about paddling.
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thats what i was thinking when i started typing, but joy road is closed to through traffic.
i will verify its open to the launch.
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Not sure if I should order another HEI or not. Wouldn't be here in time. If its temporary, I do not what to spend much on it.
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Ross, standard female wire connectors will fit on those terminals in the distributor....Maybe that's what you already did.
Green is the standard color for a tach wire. It always has been. At least for cars.
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Yup thats what I did but long term I dont like them. They could fall off.
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Not sure if I should order another HEI or not. Wouldn't be here in time. If its temporary, I do not what to spend much on it.
hold off till you get it running, if the Mallory is bad :( then i would go with the new HEI
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The whole purpose of installing the hei I have was to either prove it is or is not the mallory. This hei appears to be bad. No spark. At least it started and ran with that dist.
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Anyone else have a SBC distributor Ross can try out? Even an old points one? I'll contact my buddy Jake, he might have something.
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if nothing else, maybe i could grab that gm one from you tonight if we needed parts (module, pickup,coil)
most of them used the same parts
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Joe, I have some misc HEI parts. If you think you make something good out of it have at it!
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that would be good, there is not much to them, pickup coil, module, coil, apply 12 volts and they go.
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Know how to bench test it?
If so I could save a trip and bring it to Nsp on Friday. I have another "workshop"
To attend.
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bench test, maybe, but if its in, i would say leave it in.
should be an easy fix.
what time is yer thing on friday ?
ill be working till 5 or so
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9:00 1:00
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I think I have all the stuff from the 23 it is all yours if it will help
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I think I have all the stuff from the 23 it is all yours if it will help
Ignition stuff? Sure it would help. Known good HEI?
Let me know when and where and I can pick up what you have. I'll be "in town" friday but don't know what your schedule is.
Seems like I have to fix something just to try to eliminate it as a possible problem.
Now my zero turn is leaking oil. When things go to h*#! does it ever stop?
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Ross,
It's all part of the fun! Ok, well, this isn't the "fun" part, by any stretch. But I know how you feel, went through all the same frustrations when dealing with your same symptoms. Problem was, when I would change any part of the potential issues (fuel system and every aspect of that, carb any all potential issues with that, and ignition over and over before I went HEI) the problem seemed to be solved... until I was comfortable and miles from my dock. Then, same problem. Nobody wanted to be anywhere near me for a few weeks. And when fixed, I forgot all about it, and loved life again.
I can't say that going HEI will fix anything. But I certainly hope you can get it all straightened out, you've obviously earned some fun time. We will all face issues with these classics. But, that's the price of being unique and having some real style. Yeah, we could throw money at boat payments and repair bills, and have the same old thing everybody else has, and assume that it will mean we can have trouble free boating whenever we like, but I've seen alot of newer boats being towed over the years, and, when we've had enough for a little while, or have other things going on, we can park them and forget about them for a little while, and not have to write a check every month.
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I'll try to keep that all in mind. Its difficult right now to have anything resembling a good attitude but it will return and hopefully before the August meet.
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I'll try to keep that all in mind. Its difficult right now to have anything resembling a good attitude but it will return and hopefully before the August meet.
Understandable. I think for a lot of guys, the meet (and others like it) are a chance to sigh in relief, and come together with others who have suffered the same trials you are experiencing.
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Big thanks to Joe for spending his Sunday afternoon diagnosing the 175. Yesterday he managed to cobble up parts to make a good HEI out of several and got it running. Hit the lake and it eventually died again. We had also added a fuel pressure gauge in between the carb and fuel pump and Joe witnessed the pressure go to zero as soon as it was dying, so next we patched in an electric pump (thanks again Jason) Cruised around again for awhile and it stumbled and nearly died again. Joe noticed the E fuel pump seemed to be starving for fuel. The pressure eventually returned.
So with the ignition was ruled out as was the fuel pump, the only thing upstream is the fuel tank and filters. Decided to try a remote tank again even though I had tried this with confusing results. Fuel pressures stayed up and motor kept running for several laps around the lake with no issue. Apparently, the outboard tank, pick up etc I used may have too small to provide enough fuel and give me similar results adding to the confusion and having to pursue all the other components.
The motor was still bogging a bit on take off so Joe adjusted the accelerator pump linkage which seemed to help. I still think the carb needs some tweaking but overall, its running pretty good. Not sure I trust it on a river in and around moving barges yet but I hope to get out several times before the meet, running remote tanks. Long term, I am going to see if its possible to get the on board tank out.
Jim stopped by to pick up a tach from Joe too and he offered to lend me a 14 gal tank. Guess I'll be running remotes at the meet.
Wish I would have taken some pics of all the cobbled up stuff we had back there. Kinda looked like the motor was on life support with all the hoses and wiring.
Thanks for your persistence Joe and thanks to Jason for you assistance in the past and the parts and to everyone who offered suggestions. Thats what this group is all about.
As a side note, I think we've identified the mysterious ticking sound. It was likely the sound of a starving fuel pump.
Very weedy near ramp. Jet sucked some of them up as well as some fishing line.
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Good to hear progress! I've had pickup tubes crack before, inside the tank. Sucks air above the fuel. You can unscrew it, hold a finger over one end and blow to check that. Could be a stuck or clogged check ball in the pickup as well, I always punch them out. They've caused me much aggravation in the past.
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A friend of mine had an old Regal that would starve for fuel at times, went on for years ...
He finally pulled tank, to find a loose bolt floating around that would plug pick up from time to time ...
Maybe ya got something floating in your fuel tank ?
GOOD to hear your close to solving problem Ross !
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I know that the normal outboard tank uses a 1/4" pickup & line, where as my I/O and my larger OB on the CVZ-19, used 3/8"...and I couldn't find a portable tank that had a 3/8" pickup.
Seems those are only on the permanent mount & vented tanks...
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Good to hear progress! I've had pickup tubes crack before, inside the tank. Sucks air above the fuel. You can unscrew it, hold a finger over one end and blow to check that. Could be a stuck or clogged check ball in the pickup as well, I always punch them out. They've caused me much aggravation in the past.
I'll be pulling that apart for sure.
There is stuff in there for sure, certainly rust. I can see that in the first filter out of the tank.
Doran, I've got 3/8 running to the fuel pump now and the outboard hose fit right over the barb fitting on the fuel pump? I think the smallest part of it all is the 2 pin connectors. That may have been the restriction?
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Cool...I figured you knew that...but just wanted to mention it.
Yes...when I was pulling Goldie's tank the rust/crap was clogging up the filters and it did absolutely cause my engine to starve for fuel. Sounds like you're on the right track.
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Cool...I figured you knew that...but just wanted to mention it.
Yes...when I was pulling Goldie's tank the rust/crap was clogging up the filters and it did absolutely cause my engine to starve for fuel. Sounds like you're on the right track.
Yea... too bad its the toughest thing to change though.
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Yeah, that isn't fun.
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How big is your tank and where is it at. I have one 18gal tank from the 195 in the garage still. Joe bought the other one and installed it in his boat (I think).
Or the Century parts boat has a plastic tank not sure on size though. It is in the floor but looks easy to remove as it is all rotten.
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Mine is an 18 gallon and its sits starboard to port under the bow deck. Its going to be tough if not impossible to get out. I'll be looking at it more closely today.
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I'm thinking there may be a gauge sender that you could remove to see what's in there. Maybe a rag or something, or a filter on the pick-up. There is also small cameras you can stick in there.
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I'm thinking there may be a gauge sender that you could remove to see what's in there. Maybe a rag or something, or a filter on the pick-up. There is also small cameras you can stick in there.
Yes, Joe has one of those cameras and offered to let me use it and I forgot about it when I left.
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The quick connect on the portable tank may be the flow issue, very restrictive. Wonder if you could remove the pickup from the portable tank and hardware-store some tubing and fittings together to keep at least a 1/4" inside diameter flow throughout. Just a dumb thought (which stems from experience. bad experience) did you open the vent on the portable?
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Yup, I had the vent open. I do think the quick connect was the culprit that time.
I was looking at the tank today taking measurements and there is a slight chance I can get it out if I saw out part of the foot board or whatever it is. That will give me some additional width but rotating it to get it out will be tough because the hull obviously slants up at the bow.
There looks to be 4 access points on the top of the tank. The fill neck, the vent, the fuel line out and the sending unit. The sending unit opening might be 2" diameter if I can get the 4 rusty screws out but I cant get my head under there anyways. There is probably 6" of clearance?
Where the fuel line comes out...it appears to just have the shut off valve screwed to the tank but it must extend downward inside. I'm not sure if I'll mess with it where it is or try to remove the tank first.
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Yea, I got the dist sittin here, that should be an elbow on top of the tank with a tube welded into it.
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Big thanks to Joe for spending his Sunday afternoon diagnosing the 175. Yesterday he managed to cobble up parts to make a good HEI out of several and got it running. Hit the lake and it eventually died again. We had also added a fuel pressure gauge in between the carb and fuel pump and Joe witnessed the pressure go to zero as soon as it was dying, so next we patched in an electric pump (thanks again Jason) Cruised around again for awhile and it stumbled and nearly died again. Joe noticed the E fuel pump seemed to be starving for fuel. The pressure eventually returned.
So with the ignition was ruled out as was the fuel pump, the only thing upstream is the fuel tank and filters. Decided to try a remote tank again even though I had tried this with confusing results. Fuel pressures stayed up and motor kept running for several laps around the lake with no issue. Apparently, the outboard tank, pick up etc I used may have too small to provide enough fuel and give me similar results adding to the confusion and having to pursue all the other components.
The motor was still bogging a bit on take off so Joe adjusted the accelerator pump linkage which seemed to help. I still think the carb needs some tweaking but overall, its running pretty good. Not sure I trust it on a river in and around moving barges yet but I hope to get out several times before the meet, running remote tanks. Long term, I am going to see if its possible to get the on board tank out.
Jim stopped by to pick up a tach from Joe too and he offered to lend me a 14 gal tank. Guess I'll be running remotes at the meet.
Wish I would have taken some pics of all the cobbled up stuff we had back there. Kinda looked like the motor was on life support with all the hoses and wiring.
Thanks for your persistence Joe and thanks to Jason for you assistance in the past and the parts and to everyone who offered suggestions. Thats what this group is all about.
As a side note, I think we've identified the mysterious ticking sound. It was likely the sound of a starving fuel pump.
Very weedy near ramp. Jet sucked some of them up as well as some fishing line.
Have you checked the anti syphon valve in the tank? Sounds like the culprit? The screen in the tank could be plugged also
j
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Not yet, I'll be looking into it over the next several days.
My zero turn has developed an oil leak now. I may try to postpone that until fall.
Always something.
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Glad Joe was able to help you out Ross! Great guy!
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Yup, great addition to the club. Fits in with many great guys....and gals.
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Fix zero turn ... Pull tank ...strap tank to back of zero turn with a gal. of kerosine and a fist full of nuts & bolts
Cut grass ... Hit every bump you can find ... Two job done at once ... LOL
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Yep that
Then acid
Then kreem
Job done, one tenth the cost
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So I started looking at getting my tank out of the boat today and after pulling the pickup tube and discovering there was no check valve in it, I decided it needed to come out. Not a lot I could do to it in there. Unstrapped the straps holding it down, removed the fill tube and vent etc and rotated it as far as I could. The tank had some glassed in strips of wood surrounding it to help keep it from moving and the one in front of the tank was causing problems. Got out the trusty All Purpose Tool and managed to access half of it, then had to swing the tank to Port to access the other. Swing it back around Starboard and could see I was going to need every 1/8" I could get. Wires, hoses all had to go. The part of the toe kick/foot rest or whatever you want to call it. AP Tool then, then jig saw, then sawzall and a BFH. Cutting right next to the hull was a bit unnerving. Anyways got it swung around fore and aft and it came out. Tooks a lot of wiggling. Thought I was going to have to pull the seat but reclining it was good enough. Pulled the sending unit and looked at the gunk inside. Nasty. As you can see by the pic, that is what the gas in the bottom of the tank looked like. The last 1/2 gallon or so I could not pump out. At first I thought there was no way that tank is going back in, but after doing some research, I can not find a tank that will fit correctly. If it is any bigger in any direction, regardless of how many gallons, it won't fit. So now I'm debating having this one done or doing something myself. At least I'll know everything will line up again.
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Couple more
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Fix zero turn ... Pull tank ...strap tank to back of zero turn with a gal. of kerosine and a fist full of nuts & bolts
Cut grass ... Hit every bump you can find ... Two job done at once ... LOL
Nice! I've got lots of gopher and mole holes to hit as well as ant hills.
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Hard part is done
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Hard part is done
Ya, it was very close to not coming out.
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So I started looking at getting my tank out of the boat today and after pulling the pickup tube and discovering there was no check valve in it, I decided it needed to come out. Not a lot I could do to it in there. Unstrapped the straps holding it down, removed the fill tube and vent etc and rotated it as far as I could. The tank had some glassed in strips of wood surrounding it to help keep it from moving and the one in front of the tank was causing problems. Got out the trusty All Purpose Tool and managed to access half of it, then had to swing the tank to Port to access the other. Swing it back around Starboard and could see I was going to need every 1/8" I could get. Wires, hoses all had to go. The part of the toe kick/foot rest or whatever you want to call it. AP Tool then, then jig saw, then sawzall and a BFH. Cutting right next to the hull was a bit unnerving. Anyways got it swung around fore and aft and it came out. Tooks a lot of wiggling. Thought I was going to have to pull the seat but reclining it was good enough. Pulled the sending unit and looked at the gunk inside. Nasty. As you can see by the pic, that is what the gas in the bottom of the tank looked like. The last 1/2 gallon or so I could not pump out. At first I thought there was no way that tank is going back in, but after doing some research, I can not find a tank that will fit correctly. If it is any bigger in any direction, regardless of how many gallons, it won't fit. So now I'm debating having this one done or doing something myself. At least I'll know everything will line up again.
If the tank is not rusted out and toast take the tank to a machine shop and have it hot tanked. The put in a new sending unit and pick up. Don'f forget a new pick up screen and anti syphon. Sounds like you have been going through hell! The make that coating for tanks allso that will seal it inside. Good luck!
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Here is specs
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Thanks Shawn, that is pretty close except for the filler neck.
OK for those that suggested doing it myself.....how much M acid should be used? Straight or with water? Fill it or maybe just half way?
How many nuts and bolts are we talking? Couple of pounds?
I am going to pressure wash it first.
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all the acid and stuff comes in the kit, but you may need 2 with that size tank. You get them at motorcycle shops, so you know the size tank it;s designed for. you can use sharp rocks and you do that dry and wash it out again before you put the acid in. One step at a time.
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I prefer rocks also, grey trap rock is the best, and shake it around alot.
and as Jerry said, if you use a coating get the kit.
i used acid on the Larson tank cuz i did not coat it.
J&P cycles... (i wrote the code that runs their distribution center)