Author Topic: Trim Tabs  (Read 11579 times)

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Offline Oldfishguy

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Trim Tabs
« on: October 13, 2014, 04:58:04 PM »

I saw this on a Smokercraft boat the other day. I started asking a few questions and found out this is the modern simple version to compensate for the heavier four stroke motors. It doesn't take much apparently to keep the old hulls from porpoising.

1972 1/2 Glastron CV 16
1973 Chrysler 120

Offline buckz6319

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2014, 06:02:31 PM »

I saw this on a Smokercraft boat the other day. I started asking a few questions and found out this is the modern simple version to compensate for the heavier four stroke motors. It doesn't take much apparently to keep the old hulls from porpoising.


cool...I have been doing some reading on trim tabs/smart tabs. I have read that they are a good investment for some. I also watched some videos on them being installed, and put to use, cool product...
Please feel free to check out my new Forum

http://hookedonboatingforum.proboards.com/

Offline V153

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2014, 07:44:06 PM »
Frankly I cain't see that tab accomplishing much of anything. Ride-control wise. It's not substantial enough. And it ain't even flush with the hull?

My bet'd be it's to deflect spray tryin to get back in the boat. Aluminum hulls like that, where the transom sits fwd of where the hull ends, will try to suck water back around that corner.
'81 C500_given away, bought back_75.1 mph
'81 Baja 15SS_140 Frankenrude_66.7 mph
'70 something SpeedCraft_(Allison 16R Clone)_69.0 mph
'79 CVZ19_given away
'71 V153_54.8 mph_wrecked


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Offline David CVX-16

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2014, 01:47:30 AM »
In the 1960's, I put trim tabs on my 11 foot Pabst racing runabout to keep the bow down. The driver sat immediately in front of, in my case, a 22 HP Mercury outboard, hence all the weight was in the back. I fabricated two rectangular pieces of stainless steel about 6"  x  12" that started before the end of the boat and extended about 6" in back of the transom on each side of the lower unit. They were adjustable as to angle up and down by stainless steel turnbuckles from the transom to about 2" from the end of the stainless steel plates. Very effective in curing the porposing problem. Fun 110 pound boat that went 35 MPH, but hard on the body.

The trim tabs on the aluminum boat do not have the area to keep the bow down. Also, they are only on one side. 

Bennett is the big name in trim tabs. 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 07:52:33 AM by David CVX-16 »
David
87' CVX-16, 85' 115 HP Johnson, 58.8 MPH GPS w/ 23" SRX Prop

Offline Oldfishguy

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2014, 08:03:04 AM »
The picture does not show it but they are on both sides of the boat.  And the picture was actually taken of an Alumacraft boat, but the initial designer was for Smokercraft boats.  It may keep the water from back slashing as well, not what they were designed for though. Believe it or not after much water testing this is what they have come up with to help with porpoising.  It seems with the heaver motors in use today and with aft live wells filled with water the new boats are all loaded pretty far aft.  These tabs are designed to be installed by the retail dealer as when these boats are stacked on end in the manufacturers storage lots it would bend these tabs.  Hence the dealers put them on in the rigging process.  They are mounted flush with the boat bottom and at most have a 10 degree down angle in them.  Easily replicated.

I remember reading a thread sometime back about problems with boats porpoising too much, I post this just for a possible partial solution for those folks.  In some instances, every little bit  of rearranging the balance point helps.
1972 1/2 Glastron CV 16
1973 Chrysler 120

Offline thedeuceman

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2014, 10:26:15 AM »
Don posted this some time ago
http://forum.cgoamn.com/index.php?topic=3783.msg45144#msg45144
i am considering trying somthing like this when i do the GT-160 i have
Joe
75 CV16 "Gregg's Boat"
75 GT150 "SeaDeuced"... Its Back !!
92 16CSS "Attitude Adjustment" is for sale
75 CV-16V8, Project
74 CV-16... its Purple !

Offline Hyperacme

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2014, 12:38:51 PM »
The Kona 17 hull in Don / Joe's post looks just like my CV hull, with the rounded bottom.
Tab's might help with the "Rolling" motion you get at high trim angles and top speeds with that style hull.
I've seen other older race boats with them, but not the newer style like Dave (Oldfishguy) posted.

Offline dorelse

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2014, 12:49:53 PM »
Read up on them, they're pretty popular...just not in this group b/c your top end suffers with them.
1990 Sierra 1700

Offline CVX Fever

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2014, 01:11:29 PM »
The small hooks in the hull of my CVX18 and other Carlsons are in essence a type of trim tab. They are there to improve hull performance.
1979 CVX18 "Back in Black"....someday!
1985 CVX18 " Only thing better than 2 CVX18's is 2 girlfriends!

Offline dorelse

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2014, 01:29:05 PM »
The small hooks in the hull of my CVX18 and other Carlsons are in essence a type of trim tab. They are there to improve hull performance.

Yep, exactly Kip!
1990 Sierra 1700

Offline thedeuceman

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2014, 02:40:40 PM »
After talking with Don about the Kona article and his Personal experience my take is that the hook is pulling more of teh hull into the water, like this pix of my GT-150 at WOT/full trim, where the tabs at the end of the strakes, and i would assume no hook, allowing the hull to come out of the water and basically ride on 3 points.
i am not claiming i know it will work, only that i think its worth trying.
Joe
75 CV16 "Gregg's Boat"
75 GT150 "SeaDeuced"... Its Back !!
92 16CSS "Attitude Adjustment" is for sale
75 CV-16V8, Project
74 CV-16... its Purple !

Offline WetRaider

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2014, 03:08:22 PM »
That's really a cool picture, Joe.  Looks fast!
If you didn't get wet, you didn't have fun ~ WetRaider

Dan O'Connor
1979 GT 150 / 1976 Mercury 1150

Offline thedeuceman

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2014, 03:33:16 PM »
that was last year (2013) at red wing, prob 46 or 47 MPH
Joe
75 CV16 "Gregg's Boat"
75 GT150 "SeaDeuced"... Its Back !!
92 16CSS "Attitude Adjustment" is for sale
75 CV-16V8, Project
74 CV-16... its Purple !

Offline fireman24mn

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2014, 05:09:40 PM »
After removing all the hook and modifying the bottom of the 23 I am wondering if I will end up adding a set of tabs. I will have to wait to see. 
I think this has become an addiction.


1977 CV-23 I/O Full Resto complete
1976 CV-16 V8 Resto in progress
1985 Pearson MotorYacht 43ft

Offline David CVX-16

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2014, 05:54:50 PM »
My CVX-16 runs the fastest with portable fuel tanks on the rear seat floor and the motor extremely trimmed out. The motor in the trimmed out angle is directing the force upward rather than horizonally, which would give the most push, So what I give up with the extreme trimmed out angle of the motor is more than offset by this angle lifting the bow of the boat for less wetted area of the hull. A jack plate would help, giving more leverage to lift the front of the boat. I could also put the portable gas tanks in the splashwell, but it is not ventilated.

Look at this Allison XS2003 with the bow up and the motor horizonal. Not by accident, but by hours of testing with hull design, weight distribution, jackplates, and props with the right bow lift to go fast with ease. 

 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 05:56:27 PM by David CVX-16 »
David
87' CVX-16, 85' 115 HP Johnson, 58.8 MPH GPS w/ 23" SRX Prop

Offline Hyperacme

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2014, 09:21:05 PM »
It's worth a try Joe.
If it doesn't work out, take them off and fill the holes.

Offline V153

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2014, 06:04:37 PM »
I'd try a bow lifting prop for starters. Then raise the motor a hole ...

Having said that, the GT 150 hull is sorta unique. It's unlike the V series and way different from a GT 160.

Important to note Joe's pic shows the correct angle for tab installation. Horizontally. As close to the corner of a strake as possible. 
'81 C500_given away, bought back_75.1 mph
'81 Baja 15SS_140 Frankenrude_66.7 mph
'70 something SpeedCraft_(Allison 16R Clone)_69.0 mph
'79 CVZ19_given away
'71 V153_54.8 mph_wrecked


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Offline V153

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2014, 06:26:59 PM »
Note the angle of the motor. With the 153, adding trim just raised the bow. It was very light. This was whilst spinnin the 13 1/2 X 22 Lightspeed.

All weight aft is correct. Though I cheat & keep the cooler near my feet ...
'81 C500_given away, bought back_75.1 mph
'81 Baja 15SS_140 Frankenrude_66.7 mph
'70 something SpeedCraft_(Allison 16R Clone)_69.0 mph
'79 CVZ19_given away
'71 V153_54.8 mph_wrecked


WALK TALL AND CARRY A BIG BILGE PUMP

Offline OleRed

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2014, 10:53:00 PM »
Who has the write-up about the beginning of the Intimidator hull ?
I've seen it here, I think, planned on saving it but forgot, thats what I do best now a days :)
Anyway ---  The first hull the Anaheim plant had in mind for the new Intimidator was the sprint hull, an outboard hull, with a transom built up for up to a 200hp outboard, there is no "hook" in the sprint hulls,  Art was a go fast guy. The 200 hp pushed the sprint 55 / 58 as the came, adding a performance prop and a light load the boats were easilly running a solid 60 + with the 200hp outboards weighed about 300lbs, hanging off the back of the transom, add gas tanks and batteries ? 18 / 20 gallons gas, 50lb battery, what? 500lbs, back there.  here's my point, one of them, Adding the weight, about 600 lbs of a 260hp motor, 70 lb sterndrive only made sence, because most of the weight was forward of the transom, moving the balance of the hull forward only about 7" , they lake tested the boat, the Intimidator, and the boat ran mid 60's, most of us think that would be Great, but corperate didn't, they didn't want to sell a 60+ boat that size to the public, putting them at risk, So, they took the boat back to the shop, modifiesd the hull some, done another lake test, too fast, eventually taking a bucket of "mud" to the lake with them, added the little "hook" and something to the strakes, slowing the hull down to 58mph and corperate let them go with that, check it out, but thats my understanding.
Point two, how many pilots do we have here, besides me, just saying, when is the only time you want to use the flaps on an airplane ... to slow it down, and what happens when we add flaps, it drops the nose dramatically, so we have to add trim "up" to the horizontal stabilizer immediately
to raise the nose back up.  The trim tabs on a boat work the say way, but some for a different purpose, to raise a heavy stern, help it get on plane, pushing the bow down, also will eliminate porpusing on short boats with heavy motors, and off shore boats, fast boats, they use the trim tabs based on the surface conditions, to regulate the attitude of the hullat speed, but I think, any trim tabs positioned in a downward position, certainly forces more hull in the water and slows the hull down, and often, used correctly, the tabs result in a more stable hull effect, too much trim down is dangerous, in my opinion.
Go get the pop corn.
The little "hook" they created in the hulls of the boats we have, done two things, the created stability, but they also slowed the hulls down, but look at this fact,  the Intimidator has the "hook"
as well does the Scimitar, but both only have the "hook" about 7" forward of the stern, my scimitar ran 78.2 by the gps with the stroker in it, same motor, same prop, same drive ratio, pushed Barb' intimidator 73, her boat is 3ft shorter and about 300/400 lbs lighter, so why is that ?  the balance of the two hulls must be the reason.  scimitar has a 36 gallon tank in the bow, intimidator has 27 gallon tank in the bow, but I also had a 16 gallon tank under the back seat, thats what I ran off of to go fast, only a few gallons in the front tank for good measure, but I still had to paddle once.  The "hook" in most our boats are present in the step of the hulls out-side the first strake, then the second strake, on each side, my scimitar had the "hooks" but that baby had the speed to run on the surface of the hull between the first strakes, making the "hook" inefective, but Barb's boat, the intimidator, would not quite get out of the water that far, it's best speed was 73 mph, it must be balance, but thats just my opinion.
Barbs CV-23 is a different hull design, it has the "pad"  and the 50 gallon gas tank is almost mid-ship under the floor, and that boat is running mid 60's with a 21 pitch powertech, 4 people on board, a dog and a cooler with a full tank of gas.  Balance of the weight, being able to get the hull Up out of the water, is better for speed and performance, adding anything "tabs" to the stern in a downward position only slows a hull down.
More pop corn.
Back to airplanes, a lot of the glider planes have flaps now, more than just the "speed brakes" like they used to have, but they have Two functions, they also go Up some, as well as down to slow them down, they can raise them up some to increase their speed, quite a bit, and some unbelievable speeds from a glider at that point of flap position, not an altitude sustainable plan of course, but is the purpose of the positive flap increase, what's it doing?  is straitening out the air passing over the wing, slower air, to catch up with the air going under the wing, faster air, making a result of the plane going much faster ... no different with boat hulls and water, nose up goes faster, nose down goes slower on water, but too much of either is counter active, thats my 4.5 cents worth.
1980 23ft Scimitar

Offline V153

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Re: Trim Tabs
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2014, 08:45:24 PM »
But ... When a tab is neutral it doesn't induce drag. Rather it increases planing surface. Which is a good thing. Kinda like a ride plate extention on a jet boat.

Trim tab manufacturers wanna sell every boater in the world their product. Whether they need it or not. (Just business.)

Keep in mind those tabs are gonna transmit whatever energy they absorb back to the boat. And you. I doubt most of us need em.

That said. I'm a firm believer in a Bob's 'True Tracker' for you OB guys. Improves hole-shot & stability. And it don't hurt top end. Truthfully we took it off one day'n ran .1 mph faster. But the boat was harder to control.   

 
'81 C500_given away, bought back_75.1 mph
'81 Baja 15SS_140 Frankenrude_66.7 mph
'70 something SpeedCraft_(Allison 16R Clone)_69.0 mph
'79 CVZ19_given away
'71 V153_54.8 mph_wrecked


WALK TALL AND CARRY A BIG BILGE PUMP